The Art of Succession

welcome to the artart of succession

podcast with Barrett young join us as we

explore the strategies stories stories

stories and insights that shape the

Journey of leadership Transitions and

business success no matter where you

find yourself along the journey this is

the podcast where you'll find the tools

to make it happen you know when you are

on your own I think there's just a

little bit of insecurity to where's your

next you know paycheck coming from right

so I

think uh in all honor

I'm definitely also was in that same

boat because you're like

wondering if I let these people go will

I still be able to make my target income

and will I be still getting client you

have to take a stand in your mind like

how serious you are about your this

Niche what is it that compels an employe

to start to consider to become a

business owner and how do you identify

your unique gifts and abilities and

avoid chasing every opportunity that

comes your way how do you identify

signals both internally and externally

that your decisions to specialize are

making traction my name is Barrett young

and this is the art of succession

podcast my guest today is monisa nadig

crossbo tax expert and owner of Emin tax

and business services monasa bought a

generalist tax practice and subsequently

has sold off part of it as she's made

decisions in niching into a specific

service monessa welcome to the artist

succession hi Barett nice to meet you

yeah it's a pleasure to have you on so

we work together on a common client um

and as I was you know as you saw I guess

you saw a podcast episode and you're

like that actually applies to me and so

you reached out and I'm I'm very

grateful I'm looking forward to digging

into the story here yes so uh what

interested you first off in coming on to

the artist session and and sharing your

story like what's that driver for you

you know um I see a lot of different

people sharing stories about how they

what they practice and all FM and all of

that and to me that really excites me

you know just just the entrepreneur

Spirit of things so I wanted to add my

own story to your podcast as well and

I've been listening to your podcast and

there are some really cool stories there

so I wanted mine to be on the list is as

well well thank you very much I

appreciate that so um let's get a little

bit of context just um tell me quick

summary of your career up to the point

of knowing that you wanted to go out on

your own so I my original um studies

were in accounting and auditing and that

was when I lived in India I grew up

there actually and I went to college and

got an accounting degree and it was

almost kind a natural to transition into

the um Indian equivalent of the CPA

license which is the chartered

accountancy and I was studying for that

and uh you know once all of that was

done I got married and actually and I

came over to the US almost immediately

and when we were here I was like okay

what do I do next you know so we had to

sort of wait for all of the visas things

and everything to settle and in the

meantime I had two kids and then I

wanted to really be there for them uh so

once that settled my daughter was about

2 years old and then I discovered one of

the big box firms and I was and until

then actually I was doing a lot of taxes

I was doing my own and I was doing my

friends taxes because we were all on

different visas at that time and so I I

was I was doing my my own taxes and some

and somebody would come and say hey who

are you using like I'm doing it on my

own and then they would say can you help

out with mine you know so that was kind

of something that I said hey this this

this looks like something that I would

like to do nerdy enough though that is

but uh once uh once everything settled

like I said I was say what do I do I

know this I want to do this so I went

and got a training in one of those big

box firms I worked there for a little

bit I transitioned to a corporate job

for a couple of years I worked with one

of the t software companies actually and

uh yeah they were based out of uh

Michigan back then uh and uh uh I did

that but um you know we had some family

issues so I had to cut back again from

the corporate job so uh then I was like

okay you know I started working with

different CPAs so then it was uh I I I

was looking around I I was running all

over Metro Detroit and if you are have

ever been here you know you can see

that's that's pretty challenging

especially between January and April in

Michigan so uh so that kind of got

challenging but uh one of the CPAs that

I was working with she um said hey you

know what why don't you just stop uh you

know working with so many different CPAs

why don't I need somebody uh really

full-time so let's let's uh have you

work with me uh so that's what happened

and I was working with her her name was

K Harris and uh she mentored me at that

time and I um started when during this

time when I was working with different

CPAs though there was this thing you

know that we you're you're looking at

how they're doing business and what

is what what it is that you if it was me

in that place what would I do

differently you know all of those

thoughts kind of

yeah use

yeah and you know those thoughts kind of

run through your head right like you're

like I I think I want I would have done

this differently or that differently as

far as running the firm of course and uh

so those thoughts were already sort of

compiling in my brain so and then when K

said hey just come and work with me it

kind of worked out really well uh I I

started to do that and uh you know some

along the way uh she was also wanting to

retire and uh she offered this she said

would you like to take over my practice

and you know until then all of these

thoughts that were there in my head sort

of you know you kind of it comes to a

point where you have to decide rightly

oh is this really now that that becomes

real is this really what I want to do

versus uh you know just continue to keep

working with with someone so I said okay

let's let's let's see how this goes and

I by then I had worked very closely with

her for almost four or five years so I

felt more confident about being able to

go be on my own with a practice so

that's the story yeah gotcha so you got

into crossborder tax just by default or

by necessity

when you first moved here and trying to

figure out your citizenship and and US

income tax and all that yeah and and so

working with k then I assume the same is

she just had a traditional practice and

needed you to be a second person or you

know another staff person within that

practice so at the time there wasn't

really anything in the back of your head

that was like I could I could specialize

in this thing that I have this

experience it no that's that's funny

that you ask this question actually

he wanted to Nish in crossb as well and

she was also trying to find a way to be

able to get more clients who have that

need you know the foreign tax

reporting um okay so this was right just

around just before uh the fatka was uh

was passed that was I think 2010

2011 but just before that we were trying

K and I were trying to see you know

where is it that you can advertise or

Market that you're in this Nish and she

did have some clients uh who had a need

for crossb

compliance um they were they were

already abroad or they were from s from

countries who were here and in the

meantime I had also started to get

referrals from uh people like you know

through my own network of people who had

like crossb needs and so it was just

kind of interesting how that came

together it wasn't that we were looking

for it but it just sort of was there and

we saw that there was a need and we were

there to service it you know I mean we

weren't the big four but we wen't the

small CPAs either we were somewhere in

the middle so that that was when that

Niche kind of started to um form a

little seed in my

head

that no just the two of us it was just

the two of us and then um once she

decided that she wanted to retire was

when we we we started to formalize the

way we would do it it was still kind of

informal in the terms that we we we had

already known each other for that long

uh I guess it should have been more

formal but it

wasn't but it uh we we formed a

partnership Paris nadig LLC we were

equal Partners in there and we the the

partnership held the clients and I what

into it sort of

so gotcha and how how long did that um I

mean that was the plan of her you buying

into the part parnership and then her

exiting the partnership then yes is when

that started to take shape yes yes so so

we formed our partnership in

2016 and by the time she had retired in

2021 we had transitioned over about

maybe about 60% of the

clients gotcha okay what's going through

your mind because you said this wasn't

you didn't you saw everything that

everybody else was doing wrong but then

when it starts to come to the reality of

well now it's your turn what are you

going to do different tell me about that

mind Shi mindset shift because I know

you still have young children or you

probably still have children at this

time and a lot of stuff going on in

personal life and sometimes it is easier

just to be an employee so tell me about

that mindset shift of no I could

actually do this and do this well

so you know when I I think it's it's

different in different profession profs

right

so accounting practices especially in

the US is unique in a way that most of

our work is concentrated for those first

four months of the year and then you

have like the next two two or three

months which is August September and

October so I had recognize second tax

season exactly exactly it's the first

and then the second yes but then between

the two you have this a little bit of a

love let's say I mean now that anyway

we'll go into that later but while I was

working there was this low in the summer

when my children used to be off from

school so time yeah yeah it was a

perfect time to be with them to really

you know uh and I and I love that I love

that I was there for them actually and

uh I recognized that

now I sort of began to see that as I was

taking on more

responsibility of actually running the

practice that it these things started to

creep into the summer months right

because you have to make all these

decisions about um things

so it it

wasn't the um the the creep so to say

but it was more of of the control is

what I felt like my mind shift was as an

employee you don't have as much control

over your life as you do when you're

running your own business and uh that

was one thing and another was of course

uh the ability to

decide how much you want to charge for

fees

versus um letting somebody else make

that call

especially um you

know and and maybe this is a

generational thing and maybe it's not or

maybe it's a

Midwestern kind of or maybe it's both

combined I don't know uh that that I saw

that and I I felt like uh I I was ready

you know to to go the next step to leave

the employee hat

behind and put on the entrepreneur hat

which meant putting on a lot of hats

but I have so much control yeah and I

have to control everything at every

given moment yeah I've asked for it

exactly exactly but yeah that that's

that's that's I think that's where the

shift happened though in a positive way

is although I joke about it it but it

was a positive shift in my head I really

wanted to do this my way and I felt like

I had a lot to say about how to do

things and how to Pivot uh the practice

for it to be more you know especially

because we had this mindset of wanting

to service crossborder client so my in

my mind the old the oldfashioned way of

you know receiving papers and sending

papers was it needed to change and we

needed to get more digital so that's

that's where my mind was going yes um

was what kind of reinforcement did you

receive from K as you were starting to

explore this um this wanting to change

because sometimes we can have bosses

that suppress it and w't hold off until

it's right in their time and other times

we can have bosses that are saying you

should you should try this you should

explore this you should you know try it

and if it fails it's recoverable

absolutely you get any kind of that

experience not at all kid was always

very supportive yeah she was an amazing

mentor and in fact uh for some you know

we were always virtual as far as how we

were using the software um you know we

were on the virtual on the cloud service

at that by the time what was funny was

that part was virtual but everything

else wasn't you know so uh we had to

kind of yeah streamline the two but she

was very supportive she was always like

go go get do the thing you know let's

see how it turns out what kind of

reinforcement did you guys see in this

cross border like this is something that

could actually support an entire

practice before you bought in and

started changing things what kind of

rein forcement or signals were you

looking for and what what kind of what

would you get in that direction um the

reinforcement sort of was that yes you

know we when we got one client and we

start to help them out then they would

refer someone else say for example the

first couple of clients that we had

there was one person who had moved from

the US to Israel and they were now

living there and and uh you know then

once they got comfortable working with

us then they would refer their clients I

mean they not their clients I'm sorry

they friends and or family yeah um so so

so so that there was that Circle and

then there were the expatriates from

other countries who were here you know

like we had this client who was from the

UK he had rental properties in the UK

and um you know then then once we

started to help him him out he brought

along other friends of his who are also

from the UK you know so we were like

slowly building this uh list of people

who needed crossb compliance and by then

also fatka was passed and if you

remember the pref fatka day so to speak

the compliance was not as stringent as

what fatka made it because is fatka sort

of almost um I don't want to use the

word

Co but it kind of made Banks and other

countries sort of come into compliance

especially because fatka was uh the the

history of fatka was the big UBS Swiss

bank um thing that happened with uh the

banks not being transparent with us

taxpayers information right so then

fatka made it more stringent for other

banks in other countries to report Us's

us taxpayers information back to the US

so because then these two things started

to get tied in together that's when uh

people realized that oh you know it's

not like the information outside the US

is siloed we need to then combine the to

it was always the case actually but it

just wasn't enforced as stringently as

what happened after PKA so that kind of

uh and and then we started to talk about

it more and then the uh I I started to

blog about things and uh you know that

sort of built up our uh knowledge base

as well as the fact that we were

educating people about crossb

compliance all right uh so you two have

formed a partnership now from about six

2016 to 21 was there any kind of gradual

transfer of ownership in that process or

like was it a definite point of no I

plan on retiring maybe 2021 or some

point in the future and so you're 5050

until then as your Buy in yeah so ke

didn't at the time that we started the

partnership she did not have an end date

so to speak in mind

um the her uh well I and I totally

understand where she was coming from was

she didn't want to not have anything to

do you know from between January and

April so her plan was to kind of slowly

transition out and then um and then

maybe just keep continuing to work with

me like we know we we would just switch

roles to where uh I was running the

practice and she was just working tax

season and nothing else but certain life

events for her you know also kind of uh

transpired which made her just want to

stop working uh in 2021 so that was kind

of a uh a almost a sudden decision for

her to say okay you know what I can't do

this anymore and she had to quit so it

it it was a little rough at that time um

because we weren't envisioning that

that's how we would do it but you know

we we made it happen now I know you uh

you did say that a lot of it was assumed

or a lot of like handshake deals not a

lot written down yeah um go into as much

detail on that as you want or just from

your experience what do you recommend to

somebody that finds themselves in this

kind of situation because this is not a

family yeah partnership yeah and that

definitely happens all the time with you

know parents and children um but it can

H it can happen in close business

associates especially if there's a

mentor mentee relationship there

exactly yeah fill me in a little bit on

some of the some of the situations or

details whatever you can of course um so

yes you know we we when you work so

closely with somebody uh even though

this is a person who you are

professionally

dealing with at some point I think it's

also like I don't know maybe it's there

among men as well but I think like when

there is a mentor menty relationship

with between an older woman and a

younger women you it just kind of

becomes more maternal sort of you know

so um and I did I and I still do always

look up to K so there were uh and and

she was an ex excellent Mentor so we

were we had this very uh we we almost

had this family like relationship so to

speak you know so we were very close and

um so it was you don't even think about

it right like you're like oh should

there be any formal you don't even your

your mind doesn't even go there because

you just by then there is this level of

trust that has already been built up so

that's what happened actually in um we

were just trans there was something

written there was an agreement which we

both signed and the agreement did say

you know we would transfer over these

many clients during this time frame and

this would be the nature of the fee

share that would happen and I would pay

her back within so many years for the

part for the clients that I purchased

and um you know from then on once the

fee is completely paid off then on those

clients would technically be all mine

and uh there would still be serviced

under the partnership but uh it would

they would they would be sort of my

client so and then to your point I was

bringing in new clients but they were

not coming into Harris nodding LLC they

were coming into Emon taxin business

Services because M andx and business

services had already been formed in

2012 so that was the tricky part there

yeah so this is something that you and K

formed to service these crossb clients

like keep them out of the other

partnership is that yeah she is that the

plan yeah that that was the plan because

um we thought that bringing in the new

clients into the haris LLC would kind of

make it a little more would make it

murkier so we took the next step of

actually I created this entity so that

the new clients would come into that

entity and not be under haris Nady so

you're 50% owner and one with a handful

of clients over there that you both work

on you're 100% owner in the other one

with these crossborder clients and if

necessary you hire K to consult or work

on those tax returns as needed then yeah

that that was the plan um and then uh

when she retired we had this agreement

that there would be you know all of

these clients would come over to me and

then the same twoyear or threeyear fee

share would happen and then that would

be you know that would fully retire but

she decided not to work anymore after

she retired so um we were when she

retired we were at almost

600 clients by then and um the next

couple of years especially in Harris

ntic in the one company left over yes

that's that's that's right and I also

had remember a handful of clients in m

and and business services so um you know

and we were just coming out of Co and uh

you know so it it it was it was

interesting those next couple of years

where I was really faced with the fact

of literally being on my own without

even having somebody else to talk things

through um and this is something that I

had kind of uh gotten used used to you

know like just picking up the phone and

say hey K you know what do you think we

should do with this and then she would

tell you what her thoughts were but most

of almost 90% of the time she would be

like but you know what in the end you

that you do what you think is right is

what she would say so um we would uh so

so then now you're all by yourself

you're literally looking down the barrel

in December

like oh my goodness and then uh those

two years I tried to find people to work

for me I it was it has not been easy you

know and and and and you know this very

well as well to find like good talent

and then to top it off to find people

who have crossb compliance experience

who at least can wrap their head around

what it even means you know so um that's

that's that has been a challenge for me

but but I guess we're going through too

far into that but to answer your

question that was the the sequence of

events so to speak yeah okay so now 2021

you find yourself 100% owner in two

different companies 100% responsibility

and control which is what you

wanted two different companies yeah

right yeah and for the listeners that

don't understand I mean that's how we

work together is because of your crossb

knowledge I've got 20 years of

experience in this uh profession and I'm

just with this one specific client I'm

like nope that is way too much for us uh

and so finding that in a professional

you know I think prior to us working

together I might do like I don't know a

half a dozen foreign clients over the

course of of 20 years it's very limited

unless you specialize in something like

that or if you have a big Community um

that just gathers around your area or

something so yeah definitely harder to

hire when you Niche that's that's an

important thing to keep in mind is

because you're not just looking for

somebody out of college necessarily or

even somebody with 10 years experience

in a big firm that knows what tax

season's like it's like well that's

great yeah I know you can push out

volume but this is a very specific kind

of one exactly exactly and uh all right

yeah go ahead no I uh I agree with you

one other thing though was that you know

the hiring part was uh the the big

challenge for me the switching to that

so

yeah yeah you find yourself on the other

end of

it and you know hiring somebody

especially as a second employee within a

firm is very is very difficult I found

myself in that position with my previous

company because I need somebody to do

the work that I know how to do so that I

can run the company or so that I can

grow the company right but people who

are able to do the work to that level

they're often already running their own

companies or they would be running their

own companies um yeah I find hiring a

fourth or fifth or sixth employee is a

lot easier than hiring his

second yeah I'm that yes

so at this point 2021 you said it took

you about two years to get a handle on

all of this I guess the setup was kind

of beneficial May correct me if I'm

wrong it is kind of beneficial to now

sell off the part of the practice that

you don't end up moving over to em tax

is that right is that what ended up

happening you sold haris naig then yes

that's right because um you know we here

we are trying to struggle keep up with

the on you uh and

almost 90% of it needs to go out by

April 15th and and and let me explain

what that means in the crossboard

context you know when when you have

clients who live outside the country

they get two more months before they

have to fight so if everybody who lives

in the US get his tax deadline is April

15 people who who are outside the US

automatically get another two months

extension and their due date is actually

June 15 so their Federal us due date is

June 15th then that's right yes okay and

more often than not we are waiting for

them to file the taxes in the country

where they live so depending on when the

due date is in that country you would

probably even be looking at filing their

returns much later in the summer so you

you kind of uh yes on the sad end your

tax season is extended if you are a tax

practice owner but on the other hand you

get a you kind of get a flexibility of

being able to cater to just those

clients who have to go out by April 15

and you can wait on servicing the others

who don't right so that that was one

thing but because now we were had mostly

people who had to go out by April 15 and

I did not have help it just got to a

point where you have to

decide what it is that you have to do I

mean you know almost to a point with

where you have to to take a stand in

your mind like how serious you are about

your this Niche you know and like you

already know some of this some of the

forms the International Information

forms are so complex that it's not

something that can be you it's that you

get used to doing it so you're just you

know running through them you every time

every year it might be the same client

but you the level of focus that it needs

is a lot so and when you start looking

at that in that way it was almost out of

necessity that I had to let go of these

clients and say uh I needed to find them

somebody who would be more in line with

what they needed rather than try to hang

on to them just because I wanted a a a

big practice I don't know if does that

make sense

yeah it does I think that's the

challenge that faces every professional

but especially ours we're familiar with

it's like yes niching is great niching

sounds great and it works for marketing

and stuff but is it enough to pay the

bills and how many of these traditional

non- Niche clients do I end up holding

on to whether you know I might have a

great relationship with them or enjoy

the work or enjoy the break sometimes

from the very specialized stuff too um

but eventually if you're actually going

to be niched in a direction you do have

to decide I'm not bringing on clients

that are in that

direction and then from there it's a

step of I'm Letting Go clients that are

in that direction and then eventually

you know ideally you get to the point

where it's like I'm letting go of all

clients that are not over there anymore

and a lot of a lot of firms get stuck

somewhere in there right right right so

you end up having firms that special we

special in 15 different Services because

every each partner has their one thing

they like to do so right right yeah okay

so

you've two years in after K retires

you've already moved most of your

clients or you've decided which ones are

going to be moving or was there a lot of

the goal was all these clients are going

to move over to years had you decided at

this point I don't want to move these

clients unless they fit this very

specific

criteria that kind of that that kind of

uh Epiphany came to me much later uh

yeah it

was I guess see as an entrepreneur no

whether it's a tax practice or anything

else you're you know when you are on

your own I think there's just a little

bit of insecurity to where's your next

you know paycheck coming from right so I

think uh in all honesty I'm definitely

also was in that same boat because

you're like

wondering uh if I let these people go

will I still be able to make my target

income and will I be still getting

clients so it wasn't a clean cut you

know in fact uh it was more of a

transitional thing where we went from uh

trying to select people who would be

better

serviced by someone else and that was

something that I'm still working on

actually I won't say it's all done and

dusted at this point really I'm still I

I still have clients from the purchase

that I I I love working with them I

enjoy their company I love talking to

them even if some of them I just talk to

them once in a year

uh but uh that was that was a uh I

that's a mindset that it took me some

time to even get to that where I could

say you know I can't do this I I can't

find help uh so I don't have a choice

but to let go it was there was a lot of

insecurity involved but to be honest yes

um talk to me about the the sale then

let's let's get into that so now

was this a definite Epiphany like a

conversation or just a wake up at two

o'clock in the morning and you're like

this is what I need to do how did that

come yeah I that tax season was so rough

I I think I must have put the most

number of clients on extension than I

ever did and which tax season is this

last year

22 fining in

23 no it was the 21 on filing in 22

filing in 22 okay gotcha okay so about

two years ago yeah about two years ago

and it was you know I there's no way

that because you know what especially I

think in our profession you worry about

making mistakes when you're the only

person with this kind of volume and and

then then that tells upon your

reputation and not just the reputation

and if if you're the kind of

you know I think like Most accountants

and tax advisers are we we are very we

are very hard on ourselves you know we

want the perfect thing which it should

be I I every tax return that goes out

has to be perfect because it has to be

correct and it has to fulfill all the

tax laws so I I was really worried about

mistakes and that's not what I wanted at

all ever so that was the driver really

about sh how am I going to do this

versus being insecure about letting go

you know so it was the driver was no

this is not a good idea and um I I kind

of posted this in a few of the Facebook

groups that we are on you know with all

the different people and I was

specifically looking for some who was in

Michigan and um and I found this really

wonderful person who was not very far

from where I am actually but she is she

was very willing to take on these uh

clients and uh in fact her tagline is I

we will meet with you where you are with

technology so that was almost um a

perfect fit touchwood and it was like uh

what you were looking yeah I mean the

reasons why they weren't a good fit for

you exactly they're going to be cared

for really well by this other preparer

then exactly exactly and she's an

enrolled agent as well so I did not have

to

explain who it is you know I mean my

clients were already by then they knew

what's an enrolled agent and what it

meant what with one so uh and she's been

amazing she's she's taken them over

she's nurtured them and you you know and

I uh have formed a good friendship as

well so it's it's a it's a good fit in

fact like we did one a part of the sale

in 22 22 yes which was in 23 and we did

one more this year but she took over

with some more clients so yeah okay and

is that was there a value put on that or

was it a percentage of fees for a couple

years how did you guys come up with that

number so this was more for

definitely uh we we came up with um we

we did the formal agreement contract NDA

the non-compete everything everything is

in there and um it was more of we we we

put a value I really

actually I I would have I I was just so

happy to find her I would have just

written a letter to all my clients say

you know go see free referral yeah but

then I thought about it and you know

there was a lot of what I had already

value I put 600 tax returns is a lot to

do that to so right right so then uh we

put a value to it and uh that was that

she um it was a good old business

transaction you know where she where

decided the value and then she paid the

retainer and then depending on uh how

many clients came to see her during tax

season so after the tax season she came

and that she settled pay let's talk

about now you're 100% owner in both

companies you after that first one

without K you've realized I need to find

someone to buy this other one let's talk

about what you've done with IM and tax

to fully head in that direction even

more so than the prior five years as you

and K are talking about I know you've

got a podcast you've been running that

for about a year with a co-host uh

International money Cafe so talk to me

about that and then other ways that

you've specialized and and raised a flag

and said I am your expert in this topic

absolutely I love talking about this

um so we're going to go uh I I guess

backwards here the the international

money Cafe podcast came about after uh J

meam is my co-host she and I met on this

uh Forum which is run by someone else

who K does only to Financial Planning in

a crossb space so um so so we we really

didn't me meet in real life by met I

mean like online and then we started

chatting and we realized that uh we were

talking a lot about case studies for

different clients because she was coming

from the financial planning aspect of it

and I was coming from the compliance

aspect of it and we had a lot to share

so um so we we decided to start a

podcast because you know everybody has a

podcast one and

second we we really thought that we had

good value to offer in that uh field

where you know there's there's literally

our website tagline is we filter out the

noise and that's what happens in I guess

in many different mes where there's a

lot of extraneous information on the web

and people are just sort of trying to

make things uh their own and there's not

much understanding of the complexity

behind it so we really wanted to one get

people to understand what they need to

do but also let them know that uh you

know it's not as simple as they think it

is on the one hand but then we are here

on the other hand but the podcast is not

purely a marketing thing for either of

us it's also a way of sharing knowledge

uh and and to that point my blog which I

started writing and the the blog is

called the buzz about taxes and and I

started writing my blog in

2013 when I realized the same thing that

there was

almost uh no to very little knowledge uh

in the uh in the late PE person's you

know Arena where they could say oh you

know we need to do this if we have

crossborder or foreign assets so uh I

started to write that and I uh I started

to uh Market it not Market really talk

about it in social media and I was on

Twitter for a long time at that point

and now I'm not at all but I was back

then and Twitter then had a hashtag

called tax Twitter which uh was a uh you

know where where all of us tax nerds

would get together and it really uh

exposed me to a lot of professionals in

the tax uh field and that's where I

again met people who needed to have

somebody that they could rely on refer

people to them and say you know she

knows what she's doing if you have a

foreign uh asset compliance requirement

you're she's the person to go to so

that's that's how it sort of happened

that uh you know the the blog kind of

led to more exposure for me in terms of

someone who was a reliable person and

that brought in referrals from other

financial planners from other CPA such

as yourself and uh you know word gets

around and I I know that you were

referred to me by a CBA friend or

colleague of yours so that's that's

that's how I started to build it out so

yeah yeah I think that's hard for us to

to realize when we start to think about

specializing is the marketing when you

start to specialize is no longer like

business to Consumer directly or doesn't

need to be there's a there's so much

value there from business to business of

I could actually have a peer that's like

I've done one of these before I never

want to touch it again but I want to

send clients to somebody who's going to

be able to take care of them in this

specialty area or just

entirely I think a lot of a lot of

professionals need to look at that um

I'm doing it like how I've got a lot of

cbas that are reaching out to me about

754 elections and stuff around

succession planning I'm like yeah I

never even thought about that before

exactly exactly you know what I wouldn't

tou touch a merge

ofis my God no

yeah so yeah you've got all these

external sources you've got a Blog

you've got a

podcast

um how do you

handle that education piece other than

like go listen to my blog go listen to

30 episodes of my podcast how do you get

through to a consumer or maybe just to

another CPA or another tax preparer this

is not something that you should be

doing yourself because I know like

Department of Labor the number one you

know threat against pension audits to

get really nerdy here is people that

only do one 5500 like they only prepare

one of those forms a year and it's

trying to convince them no that you

could actually get in trouble with this

and you probably would be better off

just referring this away how how do you

do that uh without terrifying them or

without saying you need to go read every

single thing I've ever written about

this I want to hear your thoughts on

this you just landed on the one thing

that plagues me to this day you know is

to find a way to tell people that this

is like you said it's not something that

they should be doing if they are not

familiar with this but at the same time

not be immobilized to a point where you

can't even you know talk to your client

as to yes there is a requirement that

you have this so it kind of that's what

happens in uh in I think like to your

point earlier in any niches to convey

the complexity of that Niche but

especially in the foreign space because

the penalties of non-compliance are so

harsh I mean

if you think about it you know the it

it's just changed like literally a

couple of weeks ago but earlier than

that if you got an

inheritance from a non us person of more

than

$100,000 and believe me this

$100,000 limit has not been changed for

inflation like in

forever ever since this rule was made so

you you're looking at this and and a

person does get this they don't report

it the money lands in their US bank

account right and

now because there is a deposit of more

than $100,000 into a person's US bank

account the that then goes back and I

suppose somehow gets reported to the IRS

and now this person gets a letter from

the IRS asking for 20

5% of what that gift SL inheritance was

that's formidable you know and I think

people should be worried that when they

do not advise their clients on what

exactly they need to do in fact it's

it's alarming as to how many

professionals are out there who actually

work with people in the crossb space on

a regular basis now very recently I had

a client who came in because they are

they are working with an attorney who's

an immigration attorney who's filing for

their eb5 visa and then ep5 Visa is

specifically a Visa where a foreign

person brings in a certain amount of

money and invests it in in the in

American businesses and they are given a

Visa and then that leads to a green card

so if you in that space you as the

professional needs to know that now your

clients are going to be getting a lot of

money from overseas because guess what

the minimum amount to put into these

businesses to get your eb5 visa is

$500,000 so it's it's that's what you

know is is a place where I have to tell

the professional that hey you need to

know that this is a requirement you need

to declare any gifts or

inheritances over

$100,000 it's not a tax requirement it's

a one-time reporting compliance and

that's it you know but there is a cross

kind of uh uh you know of news where

that is missed you know so either people

think it's taxable or they think it's

not taxable and therefore not reportable

so that's where it it becomes a an an

issue so to speak as you have to be able

to convey to people that there is

complexity there are very huge

consequences of non-compliance in terms

of real money because

guess what your money may be still

sitting in back in the country where you

got it so but you're paying real money

to the IRS in US Dollars you know maybe

money you don't have and and that that

becomes an issue

so I think that that is sort of now

people know more and that's hopefully I

contributed in in in what way to that in

raising

awareness to the fact that it this is

what it is it has consequences don't let

your life get to that place where you're

trying to find money to pay the IRS be

proactive about these things and and

every block post of mine goes out with

this tagline is don't DIY this talk to a

tax professional who is experienced in

this area

so I don't know I hope that answered

your question I'm sorry didn't made it

so no I mean I'm just I'm H I'm hearing

this conversation and there's really I

mean there's there's a need to Niche

even further into certain continents or

certain I mean do you specialize in all

foreign income or do you have a

framework for how you choose which

countries you're going to be involved in

um and you know assess whether or not to

bring in new ones along the way that

that's that's a great question Barett

yes um in fact you're you're 100% right

there there's like so many countries

there are tax treaties with so many

countries then there are what are called

totalization agreements which are

actually treaties focused on Social

Security Inc Comm and taxes and and

there are estate and gift tax treaties

with some countries so yes you get to a

point where just because of the way the

referrals come in you're working more

and more with people from some countries

and not others so you get to a comfort

level where uh right now I can say yes

of course India which is basically you

know because that's where I'm from I

have large tax I mean tax pay B is from

there either people who live in India or

who are from India who are here in the

US um and UK Germany uh and and then

some other countries you do get to a

stage where you feel that oh if there is

another tax professional maybe who knows

more about let's say you know um some

South American country that I'm

absolutely not familiar with then I know

other professional s who are focused on

the Latin American countries that I can

say hey you know what I I let me connect

you to this person they really know the

ins and outs of this and because you

need to understand the other countryes

St requirements as well to a certain

degree like for example uh UK has these

domiciled and non dois although they're

just changing it and they're the process

of changing it they used to have this

the thing for inheritance tax or estate

tax that you need to take into account

to to decide what you want to do so uh

it does kind of get super super super

Niche at some point but at some but

right now where I am at is you know yes

I I know more about like maybe four or

five countries but that doesn't mean

that if you were from uh you know let's

say uh I I don't know I I'm just

throwing this out of the air because I

just got this client who is in New

Zealand and you know depending on what

their requirements are I might still be

able to take them on or I might just say

hey you know what you're better off just

working with somebody who is a really

Niche down in New Zealand so that's

that's how it was

yeah yeah I remember I remember when we

started working with with you our mutual

client has a Nepal requirement and you

were like I've I don't do Nepal but it

was similar enough for you at the time

that was like we can figure this out and

make this work so yeah I I totally get

it I think that that's what people need

business owners need to realize when you

start to specialize in something there's

multiple layers of specialization that

you could get down to you'll never get

to the one that's really down high value

very rare ever happening if all you do

is say oh we spe we don't specialize we

just stay up here but like you know

succession planning I got into business

valuation I'm like that mergers and

Acquisitions is so different than

traditional small business um you know

kind of familial uh planning and

everything like that you have divorce

you have estate planning there's whole

all these different Avenues you go down

once you finally say we're going to

specialize you have to say Okay how

specialized yeah so exactly I love it

though it's it's creative it's it's you

get into such more interesting

situations than you would if you were

just somebody that does I do a foreign

citizen you know I have a

foreign totally blanking on it right now

a foreign income exclusion client it's

like well okay that's very generalist I

can't get into any details or any

specifics on that versus you who's like

okay well that's an entry level and then

we get very deep on on all this stuff so

yeah I love it

all right so I mean we could keep going

for forever we're already at our time

did was there anything we didn't cover

that you wanted to

add before we move on to the lighting

round no this has been great thank you

so much for having me Barett I mean it's

always nice to talk to you of course uh

we have so much to share and uh it's

it's always great to know uh how that

you're doing well and you know I'm

listening to all your podcast episodes

especially prepar preping for this one

so I was thank you thank you so much and

so wealth of information

there all right uh we're goingon to do

the lightning round then are you ready

for this one

yes all right uh coffee or tea and how

do you like it chai and I my my family

teased me you know they say mine is like

the kitchen sink chai because I put like

every spice that I can get a hold of

into it it and that's I make it the

oldfashioned way boiled water tea leaves

spices milk and um that's that's how I

drink it the only exception I've

recently started to make is it's now

vegan because I use almond milk uh do

you like pie or cake and do you have a

specific kind do you prefer chocolate

cake G the better

always chocolate icing also yes

chocolate icing with chocolate all the

way across yes

yes all right um what's a common belief

among entrepreneurs that you would want

to

challenge the common belief among

entrepreneurs uh that I can do it all

kind of mindset because I think I was

also there at some point but lately I

realized that I can't I I and I don't

even want to be proud of the fact that

I'm wearing all these hats you know uh I

really really want to delegate and I I

just think that the sooner you accept

that the better it is for you in fact I

would say just spend the money to be

able to delegate even if you're not

making any because then you can actually

focus on how to make your money and a

business yeah it's funny we we we want

to be entrepreneurs because we want to

be in charge we want to be in control of

everything and then we find out very

quick being in control of Everything Is

Not Freedom it's not all it's cracked up

to be no and so there there is there is

a place for trusting people with what

they are very good at doing yeah and you

know oversight but not saying I have to

micromanage that I have to be I have to

make every decision absolutely it's yeah

uh do you have a favorite holiday and

why I like Dali um because Dali is

something it's very special um and uh

you know my children my and my

family it it just brings everybody

together and I'm so glad that it's being

recognized as uh as as wellth the Indo

festivals and it's actually celebrated

in the US as well so that's one I I just

love it it just brings back so much

Nostalgia and memories great uh any

specific tradition around devali that

you really love we we so you know

everybody's trying to be healthy now but

we make a lot of sweets at home you know

the the really traditional Dali sweets

and we have a group of friends we they

all do that and then we exchange it we

exchange box of sweets and you know my

my daughter is she just really got into

it at a young age and now it's the thing

that we do together you know we we look

up recipes and we're making these sweets

and it's going out to our friend's

houses and they go out and distribute it

so it's that's that's one thing that I

just love that and the fact that the

house is all lit up which is you know

what is Diwali about so yes I great

thank you for sharing that um do you

consider yourself a morning person or a

night person and do you have a favorite

routine I am a morning person and

because I'm a morning person I cannot be

a night person I have to be in bed by

9:00 otherwise I'm hangry and cranky is

what I'm told

[Laughter]

so my favorite routine I wake up in the

morning and over the past six months

actually

I I always used to do about 20 minutes

of yoga and meditation after that but

lately I have I actually wake up and I

go to the gym and I've been adding like

weight training and cardio and and all

of that so that's my favorite routine

now like like James Clear says you know

you have to become the person you it's

not just a habit that you have to

acquire

so right the systems that get you there

yes

yes all right um what is one thing you

can think of that you would want your

successor to remember you for oh boy

yeah this one I had to sort of think

about better because you know I feel

like I'm still in the process of like

settling myself into the role of a

successor so I I guess that's a good way

to think about it right like what it is

that you

know I think I would like my successor

one to be thinking about the way I did

business you know the efficiency part of

it um

and also when they interact with the

clients they the clients

have um a not just a good opinion about

me but more of you know the that that

they were taken care of in a good way

and um they didn't have to worry about

you know what was being done with their

tax returns so uh maybe those are the

things maybe more will come to me later

as I transition into a role of where I

get to oh I'm ready to you know uh

have some take over my entire firm but

right now that was my goal when I was

selling a part of my practice so I

wanted and also yes that like I said the

tax returns were done accurately would

be one thing yes yes yeah but you wanted

them to feel like they were taken care

of the same as if if you had been the

one doing it yes yeah yes I get I get

it um where are you finding creativity

right now my creativity is where when I

of course you know I write my tax blog

but because it's a tax blog it just

cannot be creative so I try

[Laughter]

to I try to work around it in the

marketing aspect of it you know like you

know the the little posts I do on

Instagram and what I post on uh for the

podcast uh on on Instagram or LinkedIn

all the little uh images that we put

together that's that's where it comes

from and

um yeah that's that's that's I guess uh

very focused on the business aspect of

it like

personally I I write uh just random uh

thoughts that come to me that are not

actually thankfully uh uh and I and I

love I love listening to music and I I

also sing sometimes so that's that's my

creative part of it what do you have uh

what do you have coming up this next

year that's got you really excited

besides tax

season does anybody get excited about

tax

season other than the fact I know we I

know you do I do I'm I'm not going to be

afraid to admit it yeah there's a

there's a small part of us that gets

excited about the on you know game time

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah if

you if you look at that way yes I agree

uh yeah I I think I'm excited about a

few things like we were talking about

earlier before we started recording you

know this the new software that I want

to experiment with to make all the

processes in the business better um and

not try to have a shiny object syndrome

and uh that one thing I'm excited about

another one is uh you know hopefully uh

hopefully find a good team to uh help me

out so I can delegate more uh and also

train people you know in this area of

taxes so

that's that's yeah those are a few

things Barett je great so you are

looking to hire in 2025 you think I'm

hoping uh if if I can find the right

people who you

know it's it's you come to that aspect

I'm sure even you have had that same

issue where you know like you were

saying actually before this was you find

you have to find somebody who can do the

work accurately but they may not be able

to do it and understand it at the level

that you can because you have that

experience expence but they don't but at

the same time there should be the

willingness to work and learn

which that that is something so is a

challenge uh and where can where could

people go to find out more about you

definitely LinkedIn uh I'm I'm there a

lot and uh uh any uh my website M and

tax.com uh and also I'm on I'm on

Instagram I shared thoughts uh on life

in general business something funny or

quirky so I do that so whatever is your

jam you you can find me yeah I on

LinkedIn though and they word sorry

where's your preferred uh place to send

people for the

podcast podcast please go to the am

cafe.com uh it's

DHE

cafe.com and um there'll be also on uh

Spotify and apple if uh those are your

uh platforms and we are also on many

other platforms actually and and on

YouTube so yes all right yeah you guys

have a special website so we'll make

sure to link that up too down in the

notes but thank you uh I just I want to

thank you so much for your time and uh

for the interview and it's been great

getting to know you a little bit better

so thank you so much of course Barett

thanks so much for having me this was

fun all right I will talk to you later

sure

bye you've been listening to the art of

succession podcast with your host

Barrett young twice a month we'll bring

you interviews sharing the successes and

challenges from business owners with

their own succession Stories the art of

succession is sponsored by gwcp and is

provided for informational purposes only

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