The Art of Succession

welcome to the Art of Succession podcast

with Barrett Young join us as we explore

the strategies stories and insights that

shape the journey of leadership

transitions and business success no

matter where you find yourself along the

journey this is the podcast where you'll

find the tools to make it happen a few

months later we decided well maybe

they're we're on to something with this

let's take it online we gave him a

chance to taste and interact with the

big boys and get that going and that's

how we lit our kids up and help them

discover their own passions they

understand you got to bring in the money

and they also develop this real respect

for the customer in general welcome to

this bonus episode of the Artist

Succession podcast last month I had a

conversation with Jonathan and Renee

Harris about 15 years ago they started

an online skincare company e-commerce

store and through the process of

building this company uh they actually

raised their nine kids to become

entrepreneurs and this is just a

conversation that we had that ended up

spanning over 90 minutes i am a parent

um I have two teenagers 15 and 17 years

old and the value of this conversation I

didn't want to cut anything out in order

to make it fit into two 30 minute

episodes and so we're going to release

this as a bonus episode in its entirety

the the full 90 minutes plus watching my

kids as late teens struggle with what

they want to do when they grow up

figuring it all out by the time they're

18 whether they have to go to college or

where their skills are going to align

with the workforce just as a dad this

was a very comforting message for me and

also encouraging and so I wanted to

release it to our listeners in its

entirety um it's a little bit out of the

ordinary just because they have not

transferred the business yet there isn't

real succession here but I want you to

enjoy this episode i want you to learn

as much from it as I did to see that the

true succession of a family business is

the training that happens within the

family business so I hope that you enjoy

this episode we'll be back to our normal

two episodes per month in August but

enjoy this bonus episode and I'll see

you on the next one jonathan Renee

welcome to the Art of Succession thank

you thanks Bar

um I want to start off our discussion

like what it what's motivating you what

do you really want our guests to benefit

from this discussion today

i think the one thing we want is

to have other parents realize that the

little small business that they may be

in at this point can really change the

future of their children and so for us

we made a midlife change from being me

being specifically an employee of a

large corporation and I was treated well

but it didn't match my original

long-term plans and it was like a lot of

people will say they'll hit that that

you know they're 40 45 and they realize

oh my goodness I spent my whole life in

a career I wasn't really wanting to be

in and it just life sort of happened and

so we thought you know what we want to

change the direction for our own

children and so we used our learning our

business midlife right so we cashed out

a 401k we took some massive uh lifestyle

changes to do that and so we decided you

know what we don't want our children to

have to go through that kind of life

change to achieve those goals so we

decided just to use our business as a

way for our teens to figure out the

entrepreneurial lifestyle so we were

hoping originally in fact Rene were

talking about you know we're think oh

we're going to grow this business so

fast you know it'll be a big empire well

that hasn't happened exactly the way we

wanted and that's okay i mean part of

that is we realized we started late in

life we had no business background we

had no relatives that were in that world

we're very much of an employee mindset

and so we did that massive switch and we

decided with our kids we're going to

eliminate that kind of thinking and I

think we were successful at that so

that's how we decided to use our

business to change their future and all

of them are I think starting off much

stronger than we did at at their age

yeah without without a college degree

which is kind of nice and handy

especially in today's world if that is

not a direction that the teen is going

to go into or I think I would want the

listeners to know that you have so much

more under your roof than you realize

you know with your kids and and their

abilities and they don't have to copy

exactly what you do so especially for

those family businesses if they're going

to transfer the business on to a younger

person they don't have to do exactly the

same things you did and there's so many

skill sets they can learn whether or not

they take over the business or start

their own which is kind of what happened

in a lot of our uh kids cases that that

they did start their own businesses but

there's a lot they can do while they're

still under your roof gotcha okay yeah i

think this will be a beneficial

conversation because as you just both

pointed out it's not all or nothing it's

not either you take over the exact

family business or you become an

employee there's a benefit that they're

gaining just from watching you and going

along in this process that they'll that

they'll carry into adulthood so awesome

uh so let's get into the founding of it

so Renee I presume that you were at home

raising the kids and looking for

something on the side to start bringing

in some extra income we were um we had

homeschooled the kids from the beginning

so at that time which it's been about 16

years now 17 years um we had seven kids

at home and my oldest were um 10 and

eight and it was it wasn't really like I

was trying to start a business it was

more of a hey there's a little farmers

market starting up in our town and

they're looking for vendors let's figure

out what we could sell maybe we have an

idea and at the time I was just you know

making bread making um yogurt you know

just things like that just that are my

homemaking skills at work and I thought

at first well I can make bread and sell

that thankfully I didn't go that

direction cuz that's a lot more

complicated with food especially but I

had a product that something I was

making that was helping my own skin

issues out and that's having super dry

cracked skin i get my knuckles my heels

and I had started to make this what's

called a lotion bar and it was an easy

easy to make i had my sons my two sons

come out with me and we set up tables

and I had to figure out the whole

research development I you know part of

how do you approach people how do you

explain things to people especially

something that they've never seen before

and so that was just an experience of a

few months of um just learning how to do

that and the kids were helpful and

involved and I I kind of let them just

use our products to go trade with the

other vendors so that they came home

with something other than cash because

it wasn't making a killing on the money

part but after that a few months later

we decided well maybe they're we're on

to something with this let's take it

online and and Jonathan has tech skills

so we built a website um we figured out

how to attract people to the website do

the marketing and then I think within

about a year and a half or two years we

it was our full-time income after that

you started the farmers market around

2007 2008 yeah well actually let me make

it 2009 because we were it was more of

before that it was just testing it and

seeing how it worked for us so by the

time we um actually started the farmers

market that was 2009 and then by the end

of the year of 2009 we were starting to

sell it online and then by 2010 the end

of 2010 uh Jonathan was able to end

where he was at and then we took it from

there to make it our full-time income

okay so I mean e-commerce is still

pretty new at the time 2009 oh we were

at the library a

lot we didn't have access it's like

that's why it's easier to tell people

you know you have so much available now

it's if anything too much you have to

make choices back then it was how do we

figure this whole thing out who do we

follow who knows what they're doing that

we can follow and tap into so yeah there

too many choices now but at least it's

easy and affordable it was just the

beginning of the blog revolution the mom

bloggers were coming online that was

very very new so we were riding that

wave we didn't do the blogging to sell

but we sold our product through

particular bloggers and that was uh that

was a good start for us it changed over

the years but that's when we got on

board with that and so we were you know

we were part of that ecosystem in

beginning okay so I mean you were

probably having to hardcode the the web

page the shopping cart everything at

that they had resources by then now you

could you could type plugin or something

like that uh yeah back then you could

have done Word i think even Squarespace

was already available back then um I

don't know if Etsy or anything like that

no but you know what though that's a but

what the point that you're making there

what is interesting is that's part of

the reason why it worked really well for

our teams to be able to use our

businesses business to find their own

sort of unique passion and skills so

even that example that later on though

one one of our teens is now a big

software developer lead software

developer loves his his job and his

career but he started with us not so

much developing as just troubleshooting

all those little things I would have to

you know have him come and figure it out

and I think actually that was an amazing

skill that I think all teens should have

and we're seeing ours develop is if you

if you can troubleshoot you don't like

the parents don't have to have all the

answers but if the kids learn how to

find the answers answers which is I

think it's becoming more common now that

if there's something they want or they

they need to research they can go

troubleshoot and figure it out but

YouTube tutorials alone can solve so

many problems for people so yeah they

got really good at that yeah and that's

when we realized it was at first it

wasn't 100 it there was some

intentionality in the beginning when we

started involving our our team so by the

time we went full-time with this because

I left a corporate job we saw the

layoffs coming there would have been a

way to stay in that world but then that

would have involved us leaving this area

going to the cities in another state

which we did not want to do and so we

made that choice so that's why we

started doing things with a lot more

intentionality and one of them as we

started noticing our kids could actually

help us we realized say wait a second it

has nothing really to do with whether or

not our kids will take our business over

but rather it was a chance for them to

get a real taste of what it's like to

apply their interest in the real world

and get that feedback so in the family

environment it was relatively safe but

it was real so when you know we're

having a problem loading something up or

we don't know where our backup is when

you have a team that's really into that

we'll tell them go research it you know

we have we give them enough money to buy

the tools in that environment right it

had nothing to do with our specific

product per se but it gave him a chance

to taste and interact with the big boys

what it is you know and and get that

going and that's how we lit our kids up

and help them discover their own

passions

i mean you're obviously intentional

about this because I know just from

experience doing something at a farmers

market it's easy to involve cute kids at

the table and handing out samples and

stuff like that you bring it home and

you go online it's so easy to do that

work after everybody's in bed and just

like I've got to get this done and stay

out of the way you're making things

slower um so I mean troubleshooting are

you talking things like the website's

selling stuff that we don't have in

inventory or you know matching up it's

more it's more actual and stuff yeah or

it's more like shipping labels or things

aren't loading properly or there's some

there you know there's always some issue

with a a plugin of some kind that's not

working and you call their developers up

and everybody's blaming each other and

you have your son goes in there looks at

the code finds the problem right away

that's when we knew he had a real knack

at this because he could find the

problems that the developers weren't

seeing and usually go to my son first he

would he would identify the problem so

that when I did go to the chat on you

know the software I would say well maybe

you want to look at this i sound smart

that way that's

really and and that's usually how they

can identify it if it's not obvious or

fast enough so that's just one example

another one would be um especially when

we started this and and my oldest who

was 10 and by then he was around 11 and

12 he was interested in photography and

I needed product shots but I didn't want

to and we are really at that time

watching every single dime so that we're

not just spending a lot of money on u

coaches and so on when we need to just

pay the bills and so he was into

photography and I needed product shots

for the products so we had him

investigate the best way to do that yeah

we sent him to a local camera store i

said "Go find out what kind of We'll buy

the light box but when we're done with

the light box and after you've taken the

the product shots and you've gotten

really good at it we'll let you use it

to go sell your stuff on eBay if you

want you know get your Legos out you can

take the product shots and go sell it on

eBay." So they would do stuff like that

too so they they began to notice that

the more work they did and the better

they got at it they were they were

bringing value to somebody else where

they can actually charge for it so that

was just a whole starting that really

young at 12 is really valuable because

they start to get good at something and

then when we see that and we need it not

that we're just wasting our time having

them do something that they're just so

so and we're never going to use it but

we would just go through reiterations of

okay do go I need this a little bit

better i need this to look like this and

then they can go back and get better at

it until it's something we can use but

then they become valuable to more people

too they get known for that thing that

they that they love doing and then other

people say "Oh hey I'll hire your kid to

go do this for me too." So it just it

just starts to take off for each of the

kids once but they do have to put the

work into getting really good at their

interest yeah i mean it sounds like

pretty early on that your kids were

running their starting and running their

own businesses selling those services to

other people too um all very different

yeah yeah talk to me just a little bit

about identifying those skills within

your kids and and making sure that

they're treated I don't know fairly or

appropriately or because I know you know

my daughter started working and my son

who's two years younger than her was

like that's not fair why can't I do that

job and get paid the same kind of thing

um so yeah just talk to me about that a

little bit there in the early days yeah

I think the the what what you're doing

and this is why we we actually called it

was a series I started blogging about

how to do this because I thought and and

it was an original idea to blog about it

it was just like if I don't write this

down I'm going to forget how it worked

and so some things you know I tried to

get the kids involved and to develop

their talents you know marketable

talents that was our goal and some

things didn't work as well and some

things worked really well and so over

time we call that parent their passion

because at some point when your children

are going to leave home they're going to

eventually figure out what they do and

don't like but you've lost all those

that window of opportunity where they

could get enough momentum with something

that they really like so a lot of times

you know people think you know I don't

know I want to become a professional

rodeo guy right but you you didn't grow

up uh in that environment well when

you're 18 and you haven't started that's

not going to happen most likely not so

the problem is you need enough

marketable skills in that field that

your teen really wants to go into like

they may not know what it is but they

have a general idea and you you discover

that over time but you need to get them

to that critical level where they can

pay you know a bed with other roommates

and still keep going if not they're

going to wind up as they should if they

can't do that they're going to have to

wind up you know back at McDonald's

doing a double shift but that means now

yes they're putting food on the table

but they're have having to give up that

momentum so you don't want them to lose

that momentum you want to get them to

that point when they're leaving home

they're going to they're going to have

enough of their own genuine earned

income which means they're already in

the that culture that they're trying to

get into they know they know people they

know the basic tools they're already

valuable to that network of people and

that's what we're trying to to do so

when you have a kid like our our guy who

became our son who became a software

developer we noticed that he had a very

logical mind that was just his

personality bent and he was spending way

too much time playing on you know

Minecraft and games which a lot of

parents you know are aware of so we said

"Hey if you're going to keep doing as

much Minecraft why don't you bring value

to that community?" So we brainstormed a

bit and he says "Well I could start

writing and modifying the plugins

minecraft allows you to do that." And

that's what he did he actually became

popular writing these little plug-in

games and inviting his friends for these

online parties and then as he got into

that he got recruited by at that time it

was

a a private business that owned several

Minecraft servers and their biggest

concern was keeping it familyfriendly

right so the parents didn't pull the

plug and pulled their subscription so he

got involved

helping a programming team come up with

ideas on how to make sure people weren't

logging in with false identities and so

forth and from there he got he got more

and more into programming and it he

really got hooked so eventually those

that initial interest of Minecraft kind

of went by the wayside and so we've

learned to encourage parents and

ourselves that you can start with

something that may not seem to have much

of a future in itself but it's often the

gateway to get to that next level that

that true thing that you really want to

so we noticed as a parent he has a super

logical mind he's the kind of guy that

will just keep going never gets tired he

loves solving puzzles and so we said we

encourage him in that area and we do

that for each of our kids so it's not

like you're just throwing them out to

the sharks and say "Hey good luck." You

know here's a here's an axe maybe you'll

become a a lumber we don't know we'll

pick you up in a couple of days that's

not how it works you're noticing your

kids you're having conversations and you

look in your environment and in the

beginning especially if they're young

your family business is one of the best

places because there's always some

aspect of your business that you could

get invol involved in anything from you

know numbers running numbers crunching

numbers to hardware to our daughter who

became a graphic artist she did some of

our logos are hilarious um so you know

like I think it was a was it a goat some

of the social media social media would

actually put it on our products some of

her artwork on our on the boxes that our

soap came in and so people also see oh

it's a family business and her art was

really good and you know done by art by

Noel Harris and so on yeah so there's

always a gateway in your in your family

business and I I think obviously in your

in this show right we're going to have a

lot of people who are in the middle of

that and I think we have seen mistakes

with friends who do have businesses but

they don't involve their kids so they

kind of unfortunately I view it as

pushing their kids out

into activities that have nothing to do

there's no advantage they might as well

not have been born in a family that was

entrepreneurial right they're just going

down the same path as everybody and so

when they leave home it's like as if

they never grew up in an entrepreneurial

family and I feel like that's a waste

when really their specific unique

talents could get a chance to go real

real

time if you you know you think

creatively inside of your business what

what could they do and and the other

benefit as parents too especially

entrepreneurial is you have connections

so the one son who was a software

developer he immediately started to work

for a friend of mine whose husband was a

WordPress blogger expert but needed to

uh he actually had a job opening and I

thought well Nicholas is kind of young i

think he was only 16 or 17 maybe 17 at

the time and they were looking for I

think he was 16 actually and they're

looking for a you know well experienced

adult and but you know he he tried out

for it anyway and and by then he had

already been doing help for other mom

bloggers who were my connections because

he could fix their thing so once once

you know my friends knew oh your son

fixed that thing on your you know your

website can he do mine too and then all

of a sudden he the word gets around so

they know okay well this kid he's really

good and he's cheaper than having to

hire someone at $100 an hour so it just

starts to grow and then all that

experience the other big big thing that

we have our kids do is blog about their

progress so they they keep a blog or

some in some cases it's also an

Instagram account a YouTube something

that's going to showcase their work as

they grow because even the same kid uh

in his current position someone had done

a little bit of a background check on

him and saw that he had published a a

Kindle book way back years ago on

Minecraft and so they said "Hey I saw is

this you?" And and then found his blog

from when he was like 14 years old so

they already saw his track record and

noticed that okay he's been he's he's a

real thing you know he's hasn't just

come right out of college without the

experience but just head knowledge but

that he's actually been in it doing it

so and and with with the kids it's also

different each one has different skill

set like we said the graphic artist she

happens to be the twin to the the coder

guy and she's very very different and

it's not like we used a ton of her skill

sets in the business but if there was an

opportunity to do that we would have her

do that and for us you know using social

media was part of the business that we

had to learn and so we have a video

editor we have a podcast editor and they

learned that as well because they helped

us out so just those little micro parts

of the business that can be outsourced

to your kids it's a perfect environment

for them to learn it and kind of meet

our standards and then get noticed and

seen and then that that helps to make

them take off

and we have lots of financial

conversations along the way right so you

know and this is part of the larger

environment you know every family you

know there's certain times of the year

when you want to buy them special things

that they've been wanting but a lot of

times we'll say "Hey when we're done

with this campaign right we have seasons

where we have more cash coming in and

say "Okay when we're done with this

campaign all hands on deck you know we

got to push through there'll be a late

evening where everybody's putting

stickers on the envelopes right?" So we

used that to have those conversations

and they've assimilated it so much that

I think we are surprised because they

started off early with that mindset we

did not so for on our side we have to be

very intentional you know as mom and dad

to think that way they think like that

instinctively so there's none of they

they go they understand you got to bring

in the money and they also develop this

kind of real respect for the customer in

general where they understand where

money comes from and how work how work

is generates income and and service to

other people and the highs and the lows

the highs and the lows and I I'd say

that that is been one of the most

amazing side benefits is they're far

bigger risktakers but not reckless like

they know how to take risks

and if it doesn't quite work out they

also know how to bounce back real quick

so they're they're

simultaneously frugal where they're not

afraid to to pile up their money but

then take take a risk you know buying

machinery they need to they've done the

research but making that move so they're

not paralyzed by decision- making and I

think that starts really young

understanding how money comes and goes

out of a small business

i I have so many questions so many so

many directions to take this um you guys

you guys have standards for your kids um

I can tell you know Jonathan you said a

lot of parents don't involve their kids

at all and then then on the other side

you've got small businesses that are

like pay your kids to do you know take

out the trash or something like that

just to avoid taxes and you're

effectively giving them jobs with no

real responsibility or any real work

involved

how do you guys hold your kids to a

standard when it's already hard enough

raising kids raising teenagers to then

say "I love you you're my son but this

needs to be fixed this is wrong and I'm

not going to pay you for that until you

fix

it i I share stories or talk to me about

negotiating and navigating that." Well

in the example just and this is kind of

how we just to go back to the software

developer kid when he first started off

we noticed like I said he not only was

he into gaming but we also notice his

very logical mind as compared to the

other siblings it was easy to compare

it's like okay I'm surprised he can stay

at something long enough to to sit

through a a puzzle

uh a logical puzzle so I was thinking

okay I'd like to see him be productive

we use that language we use that

conversation a lot what kind of value

can you bring to other people we we

actually use that language every day um

especially when they're older teens it's

like what kind of value can you bring to

people using what you love to do right

so it's not a contradiction it's more

you like you like what you're doing but

how can we pivot a little bit so other

people can benefit from that so when we

went to in that example when he was very

young doing the the uh plugins there's

very simple in fact it's not even really

called coding some kind of scripting I

think but it gets you introduced to that

what in the beginning he wasn't doing it

and I said well we're going to have to

cut off Minecraft we'll try again

tomorrow how much time have you put in

today so what we would actually have

conversations right wasn't there a time

period too we had talent time set aside

literally during the day one to two

hours where you're supposed to be

working on your talent you had a lot of

freedom but he had to be doing something

about it and they love that they relish

that so we're tapping into sort of their

deep desires but we're also not afraid

to cut back on their if it's pure

consumption right so if you're not

coding doing real coding you're not

playing Minecraft right and we'll try

again tomorrow so it's kind of a

conversation i believe in you right so

if you saw a kid one of your kids would

say was very much more kinetic much more

athletic than everybody else and

spending a lot of time you know in uh in

in the sport but he wasn't training uh

to go to the next level or whatever

you'd start saying "Hey well we're going

to have to start cutting back me driving

you on the weekends to these events

unless you're really going to put in the

time to train because it's kind of a

waste of time for us waste of time for

you and we're as parents just doing all

the work while you're lounging around

right so we're not afraid to believe in

them enough that we'll cut back on some

of their consumption habits until they

bring up their productivity but it's not

really a problem because as soon as they

get hooked on to what they I think who

they really are once they get hooked

it's not it's not an issue so I think

our our biggest issue to be honest was a

lot of it was getting the kids to go to

bed on time because I'd come around the

lights are still on because they're in

so deep of whatever it is they're doing

we had one kid started off uh I'm going

to jump halfway through his time he kept

pivoting but he was selling blades

online and on Instagram this is more

than a decade ago and he was making

money off this stuff you know he learned

along the way that what he wanted to do

knives real knives or he got into that

and he was trying at first to sell the

very beautiful knives you know one that

that make people go oo and ah but in

actuality unless you're a famous person

you can't really sell those they're too

expensive to make and then the

collectors want even a bigger name so

you so he eventually learned to he made

the other ones for himself for his own

pleasure but in order to make money he

made smaller knives which were very

utility oriented but people want high

performance so he learned and that later

paid on for him in his career how to

pivot still doing what he loved but also

adapting to what the customers wanted

the designs and so forth and so we we

just when when you in the beginning it's

more of an issue if they don't have that

grit and fortitude to push through in

order to to adapt their skill to what

other people want so sometimes you know

you need to change the color we've had

to learn that in our own

business where at one time we had this

idea how we're going to package our

product and our customers soundly

rejected it i think we're a little bit

hurt because we thought it was brilliant

they did not like it and so we switched

over to more of a tin product that

wasn't our original intention uh but

it's still we're getting our product out

and so we've learned to have those

conversations with our kids every other

day where yes you're doing great but

maybe you need a modified what could you

do like we don't know the answer what

could you do make it shorter bigger

faster you know smaller increments and

that's why you don't get that resistance

because you're not doing this you're not

putting your kid on you know kids

playing a guitar okay tomorrow we're

going to put you at a big concert 10,000

people or they're going to fail you know

that they're going to fail and then

they'll get

crushed but you're doing instead small

sort of like mini tests of what they're

able to do but you're also encouraging

them to keep going if it's just a matter

of of simple discouragement you're there

as a parent to help them if you see that

it's way beyond their capabilities or

they actually don't like it it was pure

fantasy then you can tell them help them

to pivot out of that and I'm I think of

from your original question on the kids

if you do it in terms of not paying them

by the hour necessarily because in their

minds they're thinking "Okay I just have

to do this and I'm done and then I get

paid." Um it does help to pay more like

by the week or by something that's by

the project or something that is easier

for you to switch later if you need to

um and the other part is to start them

early and like with our kids because

they're not always really really good at

it or they might have an attitude about

it so you have to switch from are you a

boss or are you a parent now and you're

always if you see that also as you're

teaching them along the way too because

it's it is a hard way you were

describing is it can be hard to navigate

i think especially as they get older

they want they kind of know what they're

worth and sometimes even with our kids

now some of the ones that are out of the

house we can't even afford them to pay

them because they know they can get more

from somebody else and so you have to

kind of keep talking in terms of this is

this is a family you're going to help

each other out we helped you out you

helped us out so a lot of it is just

this constant conversation about the

family economy too so we all kind of

pitch in and help each other out but

again that's just starting sooner and in

the beginning you know we we paid with

Doritos or game time it wasn't always

cash and uh for them to they also have

to realize they're not that great at

something sometimes they think they are

and they're not quite ready to receive a

certain amount of money for what they're

doing and so there's that careful way of

having to nurture that um of like you

need to get better at this and then you

can earn something for it so it it is

it's not an easy easy answer i just feel

like it's something that if it becomes

your culture in the family then that

seems to to grow on them too

i mean you're

getting kicked in the teeth by customers

also as the owners of this business and

telling your kids "Well it's not good

enough you need to do better and get

better client you know customer response

and everything." How do you navigate

things like that where your customers

just completely reject an experiment

that you tried while you're also Yeah

demonstrating to them like I've got to

hold this together cuz they're watching

me how do you how do you do things like

that cuz it's so it's so hard to come

home and not bring that with you right

um but then know how much to show them

and how much I'm a real person too and I

I you know I I suffer from some of these

rejections too i think sometimes just

sharing the good and the bad with the

kids like just the actual emails and I

mean if it's something that the kid did

with the business that affected the

customer's reaction then definitely they

have to be in the no on that um but I

think you're talking just in general

your two lives of business and parenting

um you know I mean I had a rough day

yesterday and my girls got to see it so

it's part of that and then I come back

and say you know what this is all part

of business and we have to like figure

out the lesson we're going to learn and

then let's go figure out how to make it

a better day you know or just just if

anything I feel like it helps you can't

avoid that it's better that they see

that i think if we didn't allow the kids

to see the good we have to say the good

too because we really want our kids to

go down this path so if we only if they

only hear the complaints and we've seen

some second generation um you know

entrepreneurs where they're like well I

don't want to do what my parents did it

was a horrible upbringing i don't want

to impose that on my kids that means

you've only talked about the bad and

then that means you probably really you

know you didn't enjoy it or you just

talked about the bad side and you didn't

talk about the successes and for us I

mean we definitely have our seasons like

we work really hard in October November

like it's we have to give up some things

that we would rather not have to give up

but we have to that's our busiest season

and then as soon as mid December comes

around we get to totally celebrate and

even during the heavy hard times we're

we're just bringing home fun stuff to

eat or have little celebrations or okay

we're going to just quit and have a

movie night or just just any kind of way

to celebrate the successes you do that

and I will I will let my kids know

usually I let them overhear me talking

to Jonathan like oh this happened

because they you never know if they're

paying attention but often they are so I

will share an experience of what I had

to deal with with a customer and then

another time it might be a completely

positive one and if I sit them down and

they're a late teenager and I'm telling

them "Oh this customer said this,"

they're kind of looking at me like they

could care less but if I'm telling

Jonathan and they're in the room they

they get to They're spying they're

spying they hear it and we found if you

whisper they start listening

of course yeah

yeah um oh

man I lost my my question on that

um how do

you how do you deal with a kid I'm sure

out of nine kids and some of them were

born into this at this point how do you

deal with a kid that's just like I don't

this isn't my path how do you deal with

I mean when you mean by this isn't so

let me they don't want to do it they

don't yeah okay yeah when you're saying

this is not my path what do what do you

think is going through their mind when

they saying when they're saying that

typically when a person would say that a

teen would say that why

um I mean what is that path in their

mind

I don't know if it's comparison with

their older siblings

or higher expectation or they're just

not interested in this they just want to

do Minecraft or um Okay well I actually

have a short answer to that okay because

I I just want because there's two things

here one I hear other parents say

they're worried about that path meaning

their specific path right so you know

you're you're a baker i'm making this up

here and you have it's a family business

let's say so if you're saying that path

typically when parents are saying that

not teens but if parents are saying "Oh

my kid doesn't want to go down that

path." They mean literally "I don't know

if my kid wants to become a baker."

That's not what we're talking about here

so where they're finding their own path

whether it be baker programmer artist

musician engineer software developer

they're finding their own path not our

path their path but they're using our

business to get down their path faster

so that's what we're turning on now if a

teen is saying that so what I'm hearing

the other side of the question if a

teenager is saying that and they're

saying "I just want to you know do

Minecraft." Well let me let me flip the

question around could that teenager say

"Hey I don't want to study history i

don't want to study math i'm done i'm

just going to do Minecraft." There is no

person in the world would say that

that's acceptable they would just not

you're gonna either take a you know a

dumbed down version of the math class or

you're gonna work on your multiplication

tables but there is no option in this

universe where a parent's going to say

hey you know what now that you don't

want to go to school anymore and you're

14 you can just stay home and do

Minecraft it's not going to happen and

what's the reason we're saying well

because you need a minimum level of

education right or wrong that's how we

feel about it and you're not going to

tell you might get tools to help them

well it's the same thing with their

talent development

my ad my attitude and position is this

talent development of finding your

future is as important as your school

work in other words you don't have a

choice so you better figure it out what

it is that you like doing now they're

not it's not like

they're cast out there a drift this kid

who's playing Minecraft I also notice

him he's got other capabilities right

i'm paying attention to him i'm having a

conversation i genuinely do not believe

that that teens don't want to do

anything in fact I think it's the

opposite i think they turn in on

themselves start gnawing on their own

bones this is where you get that teen

anxiety and and so because they don't

feel like they're good at anything and I

think that's what's going on they don't

feel like they're good at anything their

hormones are going forward they want to

be they want to be noticed and they want

other people to like them for their

genuine ability to to bring value to

people i'm putting this in grown-up

adults but teen girls teen boys they're

all the same as far as they want to be

recognized but they have different ways

of doing that and so when they're stuck

just playing Minecraft and they're

actually you know clamping down on that

that means you haven't you haven't shown

them a way to get started and I once you

find that

way then it will start wakening up but

if they're like hooked on the equivalent

of sugar instead of you know a great

steak you're going to have to cut back

on the sugar so we're not afraid to say

computer time comes off or whatever it

is you're doing that's not acceptable

but we are lenient in terms of them

enjoying some of the just pure pleasure

of their

interest you know as far as that's

concerned so we're not like we're not

monsters we're just saying hey if you

really like you know racing cars in this

area there's a lot of people like drag

racing we're not in that culture but I

know there are if you like racing it

that's fine but you're gonna have to

find a way to bring value to other

people maybe repairing their engines

right wouldn't that be be awesome

combination we're not just going to fuel

the cost of you

uh drag racing with all the costs that

come with it without you also producing

something of value in that world so

that's kind of how we deal with that i

gotcha so I mean that does help with the

comparison because it's easy for a kid

to look at their sister and say "I can't

draw like that i prefer I prefer to

read." You're saying it's your job as a

parent to say there's a way to read that

brings value to other people and you

need to explore that hobby or that

interest that you have but it has to

grow you into an adult that's productive

that's that's adding to society is what

you're saying here yeah just holding

them all to well your oldest brother was

a coder and he was awesome at this stage

in our business and you all need to be

doing you all need to learn how to code

you all need to learn how to draw you

all need to learn how to take

photographs you're specifically

tailoring that with our kids some of

them had very little participation in

the business at all and then others had

a lot more participation and it really

depended on what their interest and

skill set was so if we had an

opportunity for them to get better at

something and they could quickly

showcase it because we could use it then

we would like my youngest who is I mean

she's nine she loves I have an app on my

phone called InShot where you can just

piece together all these different

videos and photos and add sound effects

and put words and everything so I

actually had her put something together

for me i said "Okay you're going to come

with me on this video." It the product

that we have that also works well for

kids she and I were in the video and I

was the one talking but she was being

her cute little self and then I just put

a couple different videos and I said

"Okay make this short." And she just she

actually pieced it together she put

music to I mean it shows it was done by

a kid it's not a professional but it was

so well done and she did it a lot faster

than I could have i told her "I'm going

to use this actually I'm going to post

this on my Facebook." Because it was

good enough for me to actually post

something like that but even that just

tiny example of somebody who is she just

loves she loves storytelling acting

video taking you know that kind of stuff

she's just this none of our other kids

have been quite the same in that way and

so just giving that little opportunity

to put herself out there was was worth

it for her cuz now she's going to grow

up being used to doing that and yeah

they they don't all have they don't in

that example if we we don't know what

direction it's going to go but you can

imagine right what is it a lot of teen

girls have and teen boys too but teen

girls in particular they're afraid of

showing themselves because they become

very self-aware of their looks in their

teens well what happens if you have a

kid who's early

on used to showing themsel on video

appropriately right appropriately with

the in that context in the parents

business you're you're teaching them

boundaries you're you're teaching them

what you can and can't talk about but

you're also encouraging them so you

realize if you were to keep going down

this path by the per time that child is

a teenager they're not going to have the

same hang-ups that you would think an

average teenager would because they're

so they understand the boundaries of

what you can and can't do and how to get

positive feedback from people and in

this case you know she's the reason why

she felt Renee felt comfortable doing

this with her our nine-year-old is

because she loves being the center of

attention she loves showing herself we

understood that we understood that so we

weren't that's why we didn't do with our

other kids but we understood that with

her so we gave it her an opportunity but

by us doing that we're not like sealing

her fate that she's going to be a

spokesperson for our business in the

future we don't really care one way or

the other as far as that is concerned

but we do care that she gets a chance to

sort of

express express herself in a way that

brings value to other people and in her

free time she's already taking my phone

and setting up her little stuffed

animals and making these little stories

so I came into it seeing oh she has a

little skill she knows how to use this

app she knows how to set up her little

animals and and then piece all these

different videos and sound effects

together why not just have her do it for

me and see what she comes up with and I

didn't even have to use it i didn't pay

her i was not about to say "Hey I need

you to do this job." It was more like

"Try this out i want to see what you can

do cuz you're getting good at this." And

then from that it was something I could

use but it wasn't it wasn't like I had

to stop everything and go teach her it

was something that she was already

interested in that so I could hijack

that into something that I wanted to do

and we we put on a workshop a couple

days ago and we had a a mom in there who

all of her girls are into dance like

they do ballet they do swings jazz it's

like their family culture i think they

only have girls um is all about going to

all of these events to do dance so

they've already invested I'm sure a lot

of money if it's dance I'm sure it's a

lot of money a lot of time a lot of

practice and so she was there because

well what's that going to look like in

the future they've been they've become

very good at dancing but now what is

that going to be what they do full-time

or is this a hobby and Jonathan got them

to talk about all the different other

interests that they have like we have a

whole checklist of all the different

kinds of other interests not just dance

but what else do you have and one of

them was baking so by the time we were

done talking you know we were able to

come up with okay you need to bring

value to your dance club so how can you

do that well there's probably a big deal

about having healthy snacks when they're

out there dancing that's not going to

spill and leave a mess on their clothes

and you want to make sure that they eat

before they go perform so what's the

ideal kind so if it were our daughter we

would say "Okay you're going to do some

research on this you're going to it's

got to be health all these you know and

maybe brainstorm that with them so what

kind of you can't do ice cream obviously

it's going to melt as good so you can't

have that pre-done so what kind of foods

can you have that could be snacks that

everybody would love too but would also

please the moms because it's healthy

it's not just sugar it's not messy it's

and then it's amazing what a teenager

can come up with when it's something

that they already love they already love

to do you know baking or be in the

kitchen and they love to dance is there

a way to merge those two and then you

bring in okay this is important to us

we're already spending a lot of time and

money doing these dance competitions so

now can we actually bring value to the

dance you know events and so on

i know there are parents probably

listening

who their kids are already too late

they're already grown up um or they're

you know late teens and and hard to

connect and hard to have serious

conversations is it too late how do you

get started um what are some words of

encouragement or recommendations or

Yeah are you talking about if they're

still young teens or are you talking

about when they're getting closer to

graduating 16 to 18 is it too late just

throw them out there and well I mean

there it is true that if there hasn't

been any

connection with their sort of I don't

true skills is is I don't want to say

that because skills are learned but what

I'm talking about if they don't have a

set of skills that

match sort of their true personality

it's going to be a problem later on

right so you know people joke about you

know high school days were the best days

ever well the reason for that is because

they were involved in developing very

very you know advanced skills in an area

that as soon as they leave high school

no one will want right so that's the

reality everybody understands now if you

understand that then you can treat it

like a hobby and not take it too serious

and develop stuff on the side a lot of

times people lose sight of that so they

go into sort of doom loop you know I'm

I'm uh I like playing the guitar i'm

doomed to become a starving artist no

that's not the way to think about it

what you have to think of is yes I enjoy

the guitar but there's a lot of other

things that go with it and there's

probably a side what appears to be a

side skill related to it that might

actually be better suited for what you

want to do long term in terms of your

personality and other resources so if

you're So what I would say is when

you're 17 16 17 18 you you're going to

pivot outward maybe not the family is

the way to look at now because you are

competing against the possibility of

making money at a fast food play place

let's say versus working on a skill that

you really love because it's involved in

the world you really want to be in so

how are you going to reconcile those two

so you have to really put your thinking

one advantage you have when you're that

age though is you can get in your car

and you can drive across town and you

know in the beginning maybe even

volunteer so what I really want to pe

have people think about is yes

McDonald's might play more in our area

it's In-N-Out Burger yes they might pay

more per hour and if you're starving and

you have no other option then do that of

course but if you could have another

skill that maybe even paid less but was

building up compounding your ability to

make a living in the future then do that

instead because it's not just making the

cash it's also making the connections

the social connections in that world

developing the language understanding

the tools and so forth so at 16 or 17 or

18 you can really double down on that

but that's going to be much more on the

teen owning that at that point it is

true that if you're not if you I I think

that's where as a as an adult you can

make a big difference you can really

have an encouraging conversation if not

teens do panic

uh first you know there's no it's

carefree everything's great mom's you

know washing your clothes you know

they're picking you up after soccer

dad's going to drive you on the weekend

all that fantasy is going to disappear

suddenly when they graduate and that's

why I think there's a sense of despair

that a lot of young adults have they say

"Well I've spent all this time but it

makes no sense to my

future." You really don't want to be in

that kind of situation but I think if

you have an honest conversation

that's built around who they are then

you can say "Hey what would it look like

to start being able to bring value to

people in in that arena?" And I we don't

know necessarily the answer we'll tell

them "I don't know let's see if you can

find out." And they start asking

questions maybe people who are already

several years ahead of them and they say

"Hey you know a great way to get started

is this you know you're really into

bicycling you love bicycling uh you're

part of the high school team and you're

you know everything's paid for and all

of a sudden it comes to a big halt well

you could ask questions it's like you

find out the bicycle shop is making good

money repairing let's say you know it's

all the rage right now the electric

bikes well it's not as glamorous upfront

but you find out you know what I like

repairing bikes i'm in that world the

the professionals come through people

who've got money and so you're making

money in that let's say shop environment

and you're staying close to the bicycles

so you could actually keep going down

that road and still indulge in your

desire to bicycle race but but you don't

have this uh dichotomy you know I was a

big high

school racer and then all of a sudden

boom it stops now I'm working double

shifts at In-N-Out Burger what happened

and you have to give up all those

weekend you know you fall behind and you

disappear so you have a hobby that just

pretty much disappears as a dream in

your childhood and that's okay but

wouldn't have been better could it have

graduated to something serious but you

find a way to bring value to other

people so you got to get them out of

that consumption mode and say "Hey if

you want to keep going down this road

bring value to other people in that

world right you're going to bump into

people who love bicycles you're going to

be talking technique you're going to be

talking brand quality isn't that just

wonderful so I I think that's what gets

exciting if you get the teens hooked

onto that and get that conversation

going it can really change a feeling of

hopelessness and despair to excitement

and passion

if a kid absolutely says that they want

to do something and you don't feel as a

parent that it aligns with who they are

as a

person talk to me about when you bite

your tongue and just let them fail to

learn that lesson that sometimes is the

best the best and the hardest right well

I mean I mean we don't we don't you know

you don't let them take risks that are

fatal right

so uh yeah well um when I a couple of

different times I feel like something

well I just it depends because if it's a

big deal you know a big thing then you

obviously can't let them just you know

jump off a cliff and but I a couple

little lessons that our kids have

learned along along the way is sometimes

they'll want to for example they had a

something they wanted to sell to

somebody and that person happened to be

in Brazil or something like that and we

had to that was I'm just thinking of a

time when we had to like do we let them

just figure this out that this could be

a huge and it It it was it was like

something they didn't get their money

that they wanted for or sometimes

they'll Yeah we did i remember that and

and are sometimes being a little bit

stubborn i say I I think this is a a

potential scam but they were because

they were having success selling to

everybody else and they couldn't imagine

a world where adults would try to scam

that didn't when they were young enough

now they're better than they do that

while they're still under your roof just

depends on the age and how you know we

wouldn't at the same time if we wanted

if one of our sons wanted to invest in

something or go down a road that we

thought was just going to be a train

wreck and it's too big of a risk then we

would we would steer them away from that

or try to extract what could what so you

have some earlier success with it what

could we do first before deciding if

that's the route to go um also we make

them pay for their tools so we don't buy

their tools so I think one we have one

kid who wanted to become a voice actor

there's a fun story behind that and

right away he wanted us to buy like a

several thousand dollar microphone

because he saw that advertised we're

like "No way." Uh you can use my digital

recorder that I use for work and uh and

then he started he realized that uh he

was making some money actually off of

voice acting for commercials right

nothing big but there's a lot of little

side gigs like that very small and and

he enjoyed that but you know what he

enjoyed more because he found out that

in order to apply they wanted him to

submit audio files audition files and he

read up of course that these audition

files needed to be extremely clean right

so he got into this whole editing part

he had no idea he was interested in

editing he fell completely in love with

it and that editing allowed him to buy a

much more expensive microphone later on

but he earned that he discovered along

the way I want to make more money to buy

a tool and so he had to figure out a way

to do that and one of them was uh

podcast editing back in the early days

people were already starting to pay

money for this and he was like a

squirrel on this thing he was very he

has that kind of personality and he

still does this to this day and he loved

doing that but that wasn't his original

intention but it was connected to voice

acting and so forth so we allowed our

kids to experiment a bit that way but

one of the ways to do that is to make

sure that they pay for now pay for it

now we might in the beginning sweeten

the pot and and and help them get their

first microphone but after that we're

saying okay you want the next microphone

you bought one for $50 you know with

your Christmas money fine they want now

the the thousand one or the $500 one and

it was like well that would be nice

wouldn't it what could we do to make

money to get that meaning you make the

money oops sorry and I think another

part of it is that once well the older

kids especially because we had some that

had a a little bit of a slower movement

that we thought you know they should be

able to get out there and make money or

do something they're taking a their time

we start charging them rent if they're

still home that's when they're about

ready to graduate yeah and that's that's

more at 18 but you know part of it is

that they and if they didn't have an

income and they're still at home but

they're still getting better at their

craft then they have to help us out at

home you know in one way or another with

the business whether or not it has to do

with their their interest or you know

since we homeschool or we'll put them in

charge of homeschooling in a particular

topic that we know they're good at or

you know something that's going to be

valuable to the house so um but by

charging them rent early on when they

are making money then they're really

motivated sometimes to to just okay I

can I can pay bills now then I can live

on my own so they a lot of I think Yeah

I forgot about that we had one child was

the other kids weren't like that at all

they they were very uh they had high

hopes and uh but one child was really

worried it's like ah you know they had a

they couldn't understand the money side

of living on their own so they were very

scared so I think one of one of the

exercises I had this one teen do

was sort of keep a log of what you know

what ask your friends how much does it

cost to to rent a room in our area we

knew what it was and she had siblings i

say ask your brothers ask your brothers

it was a girl ask your brothers what

they're paying and then ask them how

much to live on their own and then of

course the brothers said "Well but if

you go out and eat every day like we

learned it'll double or triple your

price." So we So the all all the teen

boys went through as soon as they left

home they indulge in all the junk food

we told them not to and it's like what

did they learn and know and then like a

year later they realize "Oh my goodness

we're getting overweight."

They all become sort of gourmet cooks

now at home and they you know they still

might eat out so you allow them some of

that reality check and and the rent part

we noticed with the kids that were soon

to graduate or had graduated that

sometimes they got a little indulgent if

now they're no longer doing their

schoolwork or we're helping around the

town helping helping around the town

because somehow they feel like they've

they've graduated beyond the normal uh

necessary means so so we're washing

their dishes doing their laundry and

we're like "Oh wait a second here this

is not how life works you know?" So we

we kind of charge them a lower rent than

they would if they were on their own but

it was an incentive it's like "Oh my

goodness if I'm going to pay mom and dad

you know this amount of money um then I

might as well be out there you know with

a roommates having a good time." And and

they want to do that anyway and also if

you feel like they're not making it to

the next level like they're they're kind

of stuck sometimes you have to think

about well is the location that they

live in you know in in our area do they

need to be launched out somewhere else

to a bigger city like we're out kind of

almost in the boonies where we are we're

not near you know we're we're two hours

north of Sacramento but we're not in

Sacramento so for a couple of the kids

it was actually better for them to move

to Sacramento just for friendships they

notice out here like even their peers

just kind of are just bumbling along not

really doing anything with their lives

so we just felt they need to be outside

of the area meet people that are a lot

more dynamic doing things that they can

get excited about and just make new

friends and have more opportunities and

so sometimes that's where you have to

kind of steer them like hey you know

what there's an opportunity over here a

couple hours away in one of our son's

case my brother lived there so he moved

in with my brother and his wife for a

little bit and just so they can get out

of mom and dad's you know especially

because we homeschool it's been us all

the all the time we're their teacher the

parent their business owner they're

everything so even getting them out from

under your roof also seems to help a lot

too for them to start to grow and boys

are very eager to do that so it's not

it's uh it's it's not a bad situation

sometimes there is anxiety uh to go

further than they've ever gone before

but if you know who they are and

especially if you're talking about a

very specific skill set then you say

"Hey it makes sense if you look and and

by then they're also making friends in

that in that field of work or that that

world." So they kind of know so if you

can say "Hey you know what uh I have a

friend or or we can drive down there and

check it out." So you can do things like

that as a parent sort of clear that way

uh to get them going of course you know

there's always social dangers of any

number of things right so you can share

that with them and talk to people and

you can clear that clear but that was a

good one Renee because I forgot about

that and sometimes it's just the peers

they're around maybe it's maybe it's who

they hang out with that's you know

dragging them down they need to get out

of that so we always thought like when

we've had to steer our kids away from

certain friendships we said we have

thought we have to replace it with

something better then so it's it's hard

for kids to kind of say "What you're not

letting me go here or there hang out

with this person whatever." But if you

can try to steer them into a new

environment that helps too yeah that's

more of a delicate social Yeah where I

think also too is if you go down this

road your kids do become very advanced

in a particular

uh area of life and and sometimes you

know that that's an interesting social

dynamic because you have kids like

aspiration is I don't know what I want

to do in life and they're they're you

know they're thinking the next 10 years

I'm going to work at a fast food place i

mean that they're not hustling at all

and your kids are like going to

overdrive so there is sometimes some

some social disconnect going on you

might have to help your kids hey maybe

you need to go to you know this city

over here where you're going to meet a

lot more people like you who have

already put in the hours and and and

that has helped and um or just get used

to hanging out with

get used to hanging out with 30 and 40

year olds well and that is something

we've always done with our kids we

haven't because we homeschool we could

put them in different kids clubs you

know we got the the sewing club or they

could be in this sports or whatever but

we actually for their different

interests we would actually put them in

where the adults were and we found that

to be far better for them and the adults

always love having really enthusiastic

kids that want to learn from them so

they have a skill set to pass on but it

wasn't always I mean they had friends

their own age of course but they when it

be when it came down to really getting

good at the skill set we just found it's

just better to be around people who are

super serious about what they're doing

and they're most of the time they're

adults

about succession you guys have made it

clear like you don't have to follow in

our footsteps with the business the

online business but how how have you

walked that but it is an option if you

are interested and maybe tell me just a

little bit about your current plans with

the company and where your kids are

today and just talk a little bit about

that uh if it out of nine kids are there

some that have wanted to or go ahead i

think well we had mostly boys and we

sell skincare

products right there hurts a little but

the way you know we talked about the

tech son and we have another one that um

he was very much uh part of helping on

the shipping and um the software side he

he's he's now I he's like a project

manager but I would call him an

efficiency expert like he can come into

a small business and tell you exactly

how to make things run smoothly and

efficiently and that's a whole journey

and story in itself but he knows a lot

about our our business and I feel like

if we were to suddenly pass away he

could probably put everything in place

to get it going either to sell or to

continue going partly because he worked

in it really closely with me before he

moved out um but also because he knows

how a lot of small businesses run so I

can see him having a part in that um the

first two hadn't really participated too

much and my daughter who's number three

four I guess at that time our business

was way too small it's really small it

was mostly once when uh the one I'm

talking about is our fifth son when he

was a teenager about to move out he he

had a big part in it right now it's

really the ones helping me is my

16-year-old and my 14-year-old so my

14-year-old is a daughter and the

16-year-old he wouldn't be interested in

taking it on but he could he could put

pieces together if we needed that um so

my hope is that like I have a

14-year-old daughter and a nine-year-old

daughter so uh the last two the last two

yeah so if there are something that they

they don't see it now I don't think my

daughter necess my older of the two sees

that as like oh it's not something I

want to do the rest of my life i think

once they hit an age where they could

see oh I could be doing this from home

oh I can be my own boss i can set my own

hours like oh I'd rather do this than

you know do do other jobs or work for

somebody else i think they I think the

whole self-employment thing would be

more interesting to her so I can see

that being an option in the future i

mean other than that I think the kids

would well I always tease my older boys

like if you could just marry somebody

who really wants to you

know get into this I can train them so

there's always that option too um so

we're not there yet and and sometimes I

think well let's just put as much as we

can in place to be able to pass it on

whether we sell it or whether we pass it

on to one of the kids or god forbid we

died and they have to figure it all out

the more that we have things in place

that makes it easier then then the

better the the handover would be so it's

not someone having to figure out oh how

do you where are your passwords where do

you you know how do you use a software

so I think I think anybody's business

owner would benefit from just having

things in place that um would make it

easy for somebody else to come on board

and learn from Jonathan any input on

that yeah I think obviously we we and

our distiller we'd like to scale it a

lot more because once you scale it we

would definitely outsource some of our

activities and that would pivot things

much more into the marketing part of the

business um but we're not at that stage

so so so we did that that's a difficult

point and that has influenced us as to

what we tell our kids to do and that's

why we tell them take the kind of risk

that we didn't at your age now of course

they're taking risks that if they fail

it's not as drastic at this point in

their life if we fail you know it's

difficult for all of our family to go

move in someone's couch in their living

room right where they're at this stage

they can easily do this or move to

another town so we are com we we and we

do see them take risk that we definitely

would not have thought of taking when we

were their age but that's also because

we're influenced they're influenced by

our

experience in being a little more uh

aggressive in taking opportunities and

waiting for an employer to tell you what

to do so we're cognizant of that and so

I'm you know we're hoping that we can

pass on something but at the same time

the the children themselves are

developing their businesses so quickly

that they don't need to look at that but

it would be nice if maybe some of the

younger ones would like to take that on

plus it is a the customerf facing part

has to be female honestly so I think

early on when we started this business I

was trying to write email

marketing like as if I was my old world

of project management and my wife had to

tell me "This is a no-go you don't talk

to women like this at all." So I had to

unlearn all my all my

business you know project management the

way you communicate in the corporate

world out the window and so she she

stepped in and she has become quite the

email marketing queen to be honest uh

but those are the realities of a

business and we talk about this in front

of our kids you know the the customer

really is king and they may be

frustrating they may be sometimes a

little crazy but at the end of the day

we're still serving them so we have to

think about what they want and and then

adjust it to what we know can be done so

I I think that's kind of an ambiguous

answer is like we don't know how big we

can get this and we would like to grow

it much bigger but if there is a piece

of advice I give to other people is

that we have had friends or known people

where they've taken some pretty crazy

risk and sometimes it blows up like they

put everything on the line that their

house their mortgage their marriage even

and we won't take those we won't take

that level of risk we'll take other

risks but not that kind of risk so you

have to choose wisely the advice you get

some of that sort of high stake rolling

like put everything on the line is okay

if you're 21 right what are you going to

lose you're just going to have to move

to a new state but if you have a whole

family that's a little more you still

want to maintain you know a marriage you

want to you want to pay attention to

your kids so I think you have to pay

attention to the kind of advice you're

getting somebody who's going to advise a

corporation is going to sound very

reckless for your family situation you

know you can't just plunk you know a new

retail center with $10 million and if it

doesn't work it's okay because you got

20 other centers if you're a family that

might be your last goround you know you

might write them back into an employee

mindset and that's it yeah i mean it it

it sounds to me

um what's has set you guys apart from

other family businesses is you're you

all through this process through their

teenage years and and launching out on

their own you've never hung your hat on

one of them taking this over and there's

never been that pressure of you have to

take this over this is our legacy this

is what we've been building your legacy

is your kids your legacy is the lessons

that they've learned along the way

absolutely when it when it comes to the

end of the store whatever happens there

is going to end up happening there um

but they were

free you It's correct me if I'm wrong as

they outgrew their roles within the

company or like you guys said as they

got too expensive for you you just said

we'll supplement it with other designers

or other subcontractors and things uh

rather than say no you have to stay here

is that correct yeah although I do think

they would see the value in in

continuing it if we were not like I

think they see the value in some way or

another like I they a couple of my kids

are so used to being able to be kind of

a boss one of them has employees under

him that if he saw the value of oh this

is a stream of income it would just be

an extra side you know income for me if

I put people in place to manage it and

run it and they were just at the top

making the decisions i can see them

having the ability to do that a few of

the kids yeah they would not be afraid

of that yeah rather than like oh it's

just gonna die or and it's fine with us

if they decide to it wouldn't just

collapse kind of thing there's value

there for anybody to step into and if

they decide to sell it we wouldn't it's

not like you know a farm or something

that you feel like oh no this is our

land we've had this for hundred years

but if they decide to sell it that's I

would say hey go for it go use the money

and use it wisely and do your thing but

yeah all right um again coming to the

end but I still have so many things I

want to talk about um just talk a little

bit about parent their passion you

mentioned it early on in the show

Jonathan this is another business or

another way that you guys are coaching

running seminars what's that what's that

look like yeah it's it's basically this

is our passion part that's not really

making money yet but we want to share

this with other parents and we started

sharing that with friends and then we

started clarifying our thinking about

this because like I said a lot of it we

were we're actually deliberately

experimenting we are self-aware that we

are experimenting with our kids uh in a

fun way nothing dangerous and that sort

of coalesed into

uh this this thing that we now call

parent their passion to show you how we

evolved in our thinking in the beginning

I used to call it 10k to town which

means 10,000 hours of practice by the

time you graduate people understand that

concept you got to put the hours in

people understand that for sports but

they don't understand

that level of time you need to put into

whatever it is you want to become good

at but a coach actually told us that's a

bad thing because all the parents are

going to think about is all the work

what you want is to focus on the outcome

and it's like oh yeah you want your kids

to be have passion right so we called it

parent their passion you're still going

to have to put the hours in and and if

you do anything in teen years you can

actually rack up quite a bit of hours

more easily than you think so I I think

that we want to give other parents hope

and get excited about their own family

situation because every family is a

little bit unique and if you can look at

your family and of course if you have a

a a personal business too that's even

that's even more exciting but if you

look at what you have you can get really

excited about it and each of your

children not just one kid all of your

kids can have a chance to

really find their way early on in a way

that they're excited about cuz how many

how many guys you know they're in a work

and it's like this is not this is not

the work it's I'm going to stick with it

i'm going to provide for the family this

is not where I imagine myself being

right so what happens if you could start

sooner and marry skills with passion and

it is true you know you see all the

memes out there you can't live off of

passion that's true and you can live off

of skills but your heart dies well what

happens if you married skill and passion

together but that usually requires you

to start sooner and have that runway

during the teen years when you're safe

to you know you have a roof over your

head you've got food you've got parents

who love you no matter if you fail or

not you have the time with the parents

you know coaching you to develop that so

you can marry skill and passion and so

now you have a marketable talent so I

think that I want to give parents hope

that instead of being discouraged about

where they're going with their teens so

they love them but sometimes they feel

like they're going nowhere with them

that they can actually look within their

family and find the resources that they

already have they just don't know they

have it they already have it and that's

what we like teaching parents is like

how to find those resources that you

already have and turn that into

something empowering for your kids and

and then we've also documented what

we've been doing so we have so many um

blog posts and videos i have videos i've

been embarrassing my older kids lately

with posting them where I'm talking to

them about a certain part of their

talent when they were young when they

were young and then I then I zoom into

what they're doing today so from 12 to

23 you know that just that transition

and um which I'm so glad we did that we

didn't really I don't know why we did we

just decided to document along the way

with our kids yeah well and then just

having that whole process so now when we

talk to parents we've been able to kind

of hone in on it there's is a process

you can follow to identify that because

it's kind of going from well how did we

just got asked that a lot and that's why

we decided another reason why we decided

let's just put this out there because

people would keep they would meet our

kids and then they ask well how what did

your parents do at home they get they

ask they don't always ask us they ask

the kids that all the time so I thought

want to hear the truth yeah yeah exactly

i want to know that we're not you know

so we that's when we decided let's try

locally now and have just workshops so

we've been putting on workshops and

we're noticing this huge need the

parents are coming in some with 12 year

olds some some are like 10 is my is my

son too young he's 10 but I really want

him to get started on this and then some

that are like 16 17 and the parents like

can you kind of help me out here and so

we are seeing all these different

families but they all are kind of coming

with the same problem or looking for

that hope of what can what can you do

with this is this does this work for my

family my situation or were we you know

maybe we were just lucky in in the way

we did it but so we have a whole process

and pattern that you follow in order to

start just to get started and parents

have to like don't think you have to

come up with the answer of what your

12-year-old is going to do at 20 it's

not like that it's a pivoting but just

for us to kind of come into this this is

where our passion would be if this is a

legacy it's the parent their passion

business more than the lotion business

of what can we now do to pass on to

other parents and our kids as they have

kids too hopefully they'll see that this

is a good pattern that they want to

continue on so for us that would be

something that we would love to see our

kids continue in so that's the

succession part so what does that look

like today i mean I'm not local Northern

California so I can't attend a seminar

so it's all online too no we have it

online is it a course is it as a website

just a collection of blog we have

several courses online plan for that

several courses online you can follow

the exercises that go with it and we're

in I think in every single course and if

you and I are in the video too

just identifying the talent so we we

really target ages 12 to 16 and that is

just geared towards teenagers to come on

and then we take them through a video

and then a take it by themselves yeah

they take it by themselves i personally

it's great if the parents could take it

separately just so remember we do have

one that's just for the teens to take if

they want to do it by themselves and

then there's another one for for the

parents to do with the teens so it's a

little more involved a little more you

know telling the parents what they can

do to help figure that out so we have

that and we have another one the

blogging to the talent that that's a

really fascinating concept um that's the

one that we had started way back doing

short videos step by step of how a kid

can get started just doing a blog and it

not even a word WordPress blog we found

a site that will you can have 10

accounts super easy so if you have a

12-year-old that's not techy and you

just want them to stay in their little

lane and write and follow the prompts

that we give them it's it develops their

talent building so 40 different videos

i'm in there with my 12-year-old like I

look like a 20-year-old practically in

one it's like years and years ago but

just doing the step-by-step process with

the kids and then the kids know exactly

what to act on and in some of the videos

we're talking to the adults u the

parents so it can be either way but

really the kids or the adults can

actually take it from starting a blog

with you know a certain type of easy

software to use and then sometimes it's

like how are you going to go find what

to write about or get better uh what

what do you research in your field of

interest and how and then yeah it's all

based around developing and articulating

your focus of what what it is your

teen's trying to do right so it's not a

it's not it's not a a blog about your

feelings of the day or or random stuff

that happened it's specifically you know

if you like bicycles but you don't know

how that goes into your future you're

going to start writing about it so in

the process of writing about it one is

you're going to develop your vocabulary

in that field but also it's going to

help you wrestle with what it is you're

you're really after so it's that it's

that concept of constantly pivoting

thinking about it so socializing

yourself in that space so you can

connect with other people who are also

you know either a little ahead of you

they can give you advice or you're a

little ahead of them in fact that's one

of the advice I give to people is

imagine it's yourself six months ago

what would you tell yourself six months

ago that's one way to think about it so

the online courses we have those they've

been there for a while and we got tons

and tons of free videos where I

interview people and we also have an

automated newsletter so if you a

newsletter is is a great place to start

it's free just to get on the newsletter

because it is a mindset switch so just

taking it just one piece of writing at a

time and then we weave in stories of

okay here's an example of how we did it

with this particular kid and you know if

you have one that's more artistically

bent this is what we did and if you have

one that's more techy or more athletic

or however it's each each email that

goes out is very specific and kind of

helping to understand the mindset

all right great yeah we'll definitely

link all that down in the show notes um

anything further before we uh we jump

into the lightning round here that we

haven't covered i think I think just

parents should have hope because it is

it is hard world to live in but there

are so many um resources that and and I

think they're just there there are a lot

of things that parents have that they

are good at that can be passed on to

kids i think once kids kind of feel a

little bit more confident or can find

one or two things that they really enjoy

doing and are good at or want to get

better at just kind of getting the the

conversation going between parent and

kid is is just a good start and it's not

too late to start

i'm going to ask a question about hope

talk to me about your adult children and

appreciation and just the relationships

that you're able to have with them now

that they're out of the house and I

think give some hope to the parents of

teenagers out there well for one one of

that I love seeing is how much they help

each other out because they know who is

good at what and there's always there's

always a time when one needs help with

something and they they go to each other

like I need I need help with this they

know who to go to um and they get help

and that for me as a mom to see your

kids getting along so well because they

each have so much respect for each other

is very good um probably have more to I

think that's right i think when they

first get out of the

home which is normal they think the rest

of the world operates the way we do and

every family goes and they go out there

it's kind of like oh I don't need to eat

healthy and then after a year like oh my

goodness I'm becoming you know

overweight and and I don't feel good

just only eating fast food and then they

realize oh I guess our way of cooking

wasn't so bad after all so they go

through that with the with the career

stuff and they see friends who were

happy when they're in high school and

now they're starting to become

discouraged and they realize well oh

it's because they haven't been

developing anything of their own so they

feel like they're constantly starting at

the bottom and they make that connection

more a few years or two or three years

after they leave home because they don't

make always that connection why is my

friend always depressed or going through

these difficult times because also it's

also a time period when when friends are

loading themselves up on debt right so

you know right now they maybe they're

having a good time they're able to go to

the beach when our kid is actually

putting a night photography session on

you know because he's passionate about

it but he also needs to work whereas the

other kids are always available to party

and then the bills come due and then

things turn dark and then they're stuck

coming back to live at home because they

don't a lot of that is happening and so

when they get to about 22 23 we have

noticed they'll call us up and and

actually say thank you to us for a lot

more of that now

just have to let go and then see them

and then when they come back I mean I

even asked each of the kids okay tell us

about your blogging experience we made

you do when you were you know 12 13 16

and one of them said "I hate to even

admit it mom but it was actually so good

because I have to write these emails to

clients and so on but um they actually

all came back giving positive reports

about that." So I think now they see

especially because they're comparing

where they are compared to what other

people their age are doing and I think

they're a lot more grateful and not to

worry about debt is is a big one i think

that they're very grateful they don't

have to worry about student debt right

now which you know if if we were not

against having them go on to get a

degree after um but we just wanted to

make sure they were very intentional if

they did choose that route and um none

of them have chosen to go that route and

they are in in Yeah we we have said we

we both have college degrees and so we

didn't have a bad experience but

honestly looking back on it it didn't

really do that much for us so you know

we give them the reality because we tell

them when you get out you have you know

go to college if it's going to

accelerate you toward your goal right so

so all of them are already more advanced

than the degree yeah exactly and so we

tell them well here I'll tell you what

college is like you know there's the fun

part of hanging out with friends but

that's not college that's not the

education part you haven't You can hang

out with friends now doing exactly that

you know having late night parties you

can do that without going to college the

actual college do what I do enlist in

the Marine Corps enlist in the Marine

Corps you get the dorm experience and

none of the debt so

terrible idea do not listen to that

yeah so I think that's what happens with

the kids they in our experience has been

they do come back after two three years

and really put the pieces together and

see what they are where they are now

because they were able to sort of invest

They're trying to hire the funny thing

is they're trying to hire people to work

for them and having a really really hard

time finding quality workers so that's

that's kind of you know that's just the

day and age that we live in now compared

to the past I think but knowing that

that could have been them is kind of

nice to know that no they they they do

work hard hiring employees with the

education but not the skills and that

you know yeah I could I could see it

okay all right uh thank you so much for

just letting me pick your brain and

share it with the audience i've really

appreciated this um you guys ready for

the lightning round as we wrap up let's

do it okay um who would like to go first

on each question can we can we just like

answer if you just shoot one out and one

of us answers it okay that's fine what

do we answer

uh coffee or tea and how do you like it

prepared

bulletproof coffee for me i like mine

black with a splash of milk in it

espresso

okay um pie or cake and do you have a

favorite kind raspberry pie because our

son the coder was into raspberry pie day

which was a phenomenon and our local

store had a raspberry rhubarb pie that

would come out around that time and we

would get it for him it was always a big

deal we'd celebrate because he had his

raspberry pie you know the the

electronics and everybody got to enjoy

and we still have a picture of him

eating it so it was a celebration of him

his talent and raspberry pie just for

the fun of it i would say the strawberry

rhubarb that your mom and strawberry

rhubarb but it actually had rhubarb in

it so I'd forgotten about uh raspberry

pie man that's seems so long ago um you

mean you guys have been challenging them

this entire time but what what's a

common belief among entrepreneurs that

you would want to challenge

i think there are too many that don't

pass on what they know and can do on to

their kids and like we said it's like

the earlier you start the easier it is

it's it just involve them as much as you

can and it does take time you have to

stop and train or take the time to do it

but um it just makes it a lot easier

later on they then when they get good at

something that they can turn around and

jump in and help you okay jonathan

anything different yeah don't don't

believe that a school can replace you so

I have heard this said and I think it's

true that if you're successful in your

business you think that the local school

you're sending your kids to can be

better than you in teaching those skills

and that is not true not true at all so

if you hand it off entirely to them they

will migrate back to the average i

really believe that so they won't

understand how you think and how you got

to where it is and they're being taught

by people who are lesser people in that

area of life and so I think that creates

a an unfortunate dichotomy in your kids'

mind so you have to stay in charge um

what's your favorite holiday and why i

would say Thanksgiving um when we can

get all of the kids together and now we

have a grandson we have two married um

when we can get everybody together that

to me and it's not even that

um I think it's just for me sitting back

and watching the siblings talk is is so

much fun especially when they reminisce

and they bring up things like we'll just

sit there and listen to them talk about

how either I or Jonathan did dealt with

something it's really it's a lot of fun

my brother and I used to torment my mom

early on with just the memories that she

would have no idea that we had done

things or she come up too yeah that was

fun for us for a couple years there when

we'd first left the

house now I'm terrified of it myself i'm

like "Oh my gosh what if my kids

returned?" I know

um do you guys consider yourselves

morning people night people one of each

and do you have a favorite routine each

of you we're definitely morning people

we get up really early and it's a habit

we started uh five years ago maybe like

eight years ago if you're talking yeah

going to the gym super early that we get

there by

lifts our It lifts our mood up a lot we

get there by 600 which is like 20

minutes away so we're up early and then

we're home when our daughters are

starting to wake up okay you guys take a

class together there or you just No we

can't work out there the machines and

everything we don't we can we secrets of

married life we can be in the same

building but we can't be doing the same

class or exercise no we learned that we

would learn that when we were newly

married but yeah just our own weight

training and whatever routines yeah okay

um what's one thing that you would want

your successor to remember you for that

we cared successor meaning business-wise

yeah not necessarily your kids um

because that's a whole different um you

know different conversation but yeah

some somebody that took over the

business or that watched you or that was

alongside that journey with you and if

that were the case I would think that we

developed something

that for lack of better word humane it

was people friendly in other words you

could work in this environment and have

a life

so we we

definitely you know made decisions along

the way we could have made different

decisions

But it would have been a lot harsher

on family and just just you know some

things could have been easier and we

could have probably grown the business

faster and you know we would have

probably been even more successful but

at the cost of family life that would

been that would have been hard so I I

think we've always been aware of that

and so probably I would say if someone

took over our business that it's kind of

baked in to a lot of the things we do so

you'd have to really break the process

to make it un uh unfriendly to families

yeah and I think just as a another one

is just to be relatable with your own

customers i think that's helped me along

the along the way from being you know a

younger

mom selling products that were really I

I thought of my customer avatar as being

my age so now it's funny because when

people ask well you know how old are

your customers and I'm saying well

they're like mid-50s on up i don't know

what happened you're like okay well I

aged with them so

nice um where are you guys finding

creativity right now toast Masters we

decided to join Toast Masters as a

couple a few months ago and we are

having a blast we It's just fun there's

so many different people there all walks

of life um younger people business

owners retired people creative people

not so creative people and just

practicing our public speaking our

jokeelling inspirational moments and um

that actually has been just been fun we

do that in the evenings every week once

a week we're addicted to it now so that

is one activity you guys will do

together then yeah yeah yeah unlike the

gym so um how long have you guys been

doing that one the Toast Masters uh

three months now yeah at least okay i

think we haven't Well I missed last

night but we pretty much have made every

single meeting for three months how many

How many times have you guys been on the

uh on stage you were last night um

probably well every every week you have

an opportunity to say something but as

far as giving a speech you've given

three and I

not be every single time you do are

expected to volunteer to joke for a joke

of the day uh or an inspirational moment

or something very small also a lot of it

has to do with just also learning how to

get up shake a hand you know just all

the social graces that go with being in

a public environment and there's so much

camaraderie and you get you get dinged

if you say too many a's and filler words

which is which is half the fun all right

great um last question uh what's one

thing that you've got coming up in the

next year or so that's got you really uh

excited about the future i think we're

still navigating the local

um moms and dads of teens and

opportunities there with our workshops

that's still because that's kind of new

doing it local we've been doing that

online but not really locally so I think

kind of navigating that and trying to

figure out um where people are at and

what their needs are we feel like we

have the answer for them but having see

where seeing where they are and noticing

whether or not it's something they they

can see the value of is it's we're

trying to like in the past it would have

been more frustrating and like come on

this is what the thing you just got to

try it and now it's more like okay we'll

just have to listen in on these

conversations see where people are at

let them like you ask the questions and

um try to figure out how to show people

so That's it's a little bit of a

challenge but it's also very stimulating

to see what people are talking about too

so yeah yeah after 15 years of serving

one type of customer now you've got a

different one that you've got to listen

to and find out what they value so are

those um is that a one-time seminar is

it a weekly course what's that look like

locally for you guys once a month once a

quarter well the online courses are are

self-contained so you can sign up and do

that anytime so we're not we're not

doing it live it's record pre-recorded

and there are exercises that go with it

and I I have it on a website that allows

you to try it keeps track and notifies

me when people complete it so that's

specifically the in-person ones are you

guys doing them

every So what we're doing is putting on

little mini seminars introducing the

idea of how they can get started and

that's we're in the discovery phase so

as we are doing this we're also

listening to people tell us where their

pain points are and what they're trying

to do so there's a lot of there's

curiosity but we're not really sure how

and if it will translate into action and

if they want to go to the next level so

that's what we're trying to to to figure

out because ideally like for example in

the summertime when kids are out of

school you have two options either

they're already packed with activities

because it's the summertime or they're

doing vacation what we would see it as

is no it's ideal school is out you have

time you need to fill that time with

something that could be productive so

might as well come and find out from us

how to navigate building those talents

so that by the time school does start up

again you have a mindset that okay if

I'm going to be doing if I'm assigned an

English essay you know you have to do an

English essay why don't you if it's if

you're not homeschooled why don't you

talk to your teacher about like oh this

is what I've learned over the summer can

I do my essay on that because I know

that you want me to cover all these

different research topic um types of

research I can do that so if it's a

mindset switch that we can get the kids

going on or just starting their talent

building during the summer that's how I

would see it as being ideal so that's

where that's the part about the

discovery phase that we're Yeah we

honestly don't so know and people come

from very different walks of life we

keep thinking everybody does things the

way we do it and then we realize no

that's not true yeah sure okay awesome

um all right well this is the chance to

tell people where they can go to to find

out more information so go ahead and uh

and let everybody know i'd be parent

Their passion.com so there's two T's

next to each other parent Their Passion

and then the same for Instagram and

Facebook uh we like to post what our

kids are doing it's it's fun to watch

what our adult kids post because it's

usually in their field that they're

working in so if my daughter's doing

something with and she's illustrating

something she makes a little video how

she illustrated this put it together

then I'll usually share that say "Okay

this is what your 23-year-old could do."

But guess what when she was 12 this is

what she was doing you know so trying to

take we have one of our sons is a

machinist so he's got lots of videos of

his work in his machinist environment

and so just being able to share that

Instagram would be enough of a good

place to start with following and seeing

what the results could look like and you

can email me directly i do read my email

all the time and I will reply it's

Jonathan

parentpassion.com so Jonathan is

jo

parentpassion.com and if you have a

question ask me also if you go to our

website and you just put your email

right on that main page you'll get a

free download which is like a

self-discovery process so you can get a

taste of the basic concept of how you

can get started so you can just take a

piece of what we do and still get

results of course if you you know try a

lot of the tips that we've we've tried

you're going to be it's going to be much

easier to get there faster but you can

do just blogging for example and nothing

else and that's going to make a big

difference and to come back to our

ecommerce side back to the farmers

market origin that's

hardion.com so dry cracked skin lotion

bars that's hard lotion.com

okay well thank you so much for this uh

I've really appreciated this

conversation got a lot longer than

normal episodes but I think I think the

listeners will will get a lot of value

from this i just want to thank you both

so much thank you thank you you've been

listening to the Art of Succession

podcast with your host Barrett Young

twice a month we'll bring you interviews

sharing the successes and challenges

from business owners with their own

succession stories the Art of Succession

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