The Art of Succession

welcome to the art of succession podcast

with Barrett young join us as we explore

the strategies stories and insights that

shape the Journey of leadership

Transitions and business success no

matter where you find yourself along the

journey this is the podcast where you'll

find the tools to make it happen when

people have everything that they

probably ever needed and they don't have

a lot of things to do it seems like

there's a lot more complaining going on

so to me you know a Leader's role is to

be able to adapt as a senior enlisted

leader my job is to find find out what

the unit needs clarifying expectations

hey team this is the direction in which

we're going and this is why U we'd love

for you to be involved in this right

because you're the ones on the ground

that knows my name is Barrett young and

this is the art of succession podcast my

guest today is Joe Bogden a retired

chief Master Sergeant in the US Air

Force and a human resource professional

with J Joe's a friend of mine from

church and just retired after 24 years

and we'll be sharing lessons today from

the military on succession planning and

Legacy Joe welcome to the art of

succession thanks Barrett man this is is

an absolute honor to be on your show

with you and to be able to share some

space with you thank you very much I

appreciate you have being on so this

interview is going to be a little bit

different as you know my guests are

typically people who've bought a

business or just sold a business and we

were talking about this and I think that

the military offers a a specific model

that could be helpful for this

succession planning audience because I

guess for those who don't know tell me a

little bit about how often in the Air

Force you would stay at a given Duty

station yeah so it would be um it it it

varies depending on you know your um

your specialty and whether or not that

mission or that um that skill sets

needed at a particular uh military

installation but typically uh in

enlisted Airman like I was would move

around anywhere between once every 3 to

four years and then as you um rise in

your uh ranks typically when you're at

the higher end where where I was at um

you move much more often to the needs of

the Air Force and when they say needs of

the Air Force that could mean very often

and uh in in the final four years of my

career I moved four times so it was it

was definitely quite a bit moving around

plus there was a deployment in there in

the middle of those four years so it was

definitely a a turbulent uh uh Endeavor

for the last bit Yeah so I don't think

civilians realize that I mean the

military you guys are always constantly

making new friends fitting into an

existing culture taking over where

somebody else left it and I I think that

that's going to provide some insight in

this conversation just for how somebody

coming into a business that already

pre-exists they're joining it can get up

to speed and continue on the business uh

pretty quickly so I'm really looking

forward to this discussion what brings

you to the artist succession I mean what

what interested you in this

conversation well I mean to be frank I

think just uh talking to you Barrett has

always been fun so I think that's great

and uh and me personally I just have a

passion for sharing um what I know with

others um one of my life purposes um

I've shared this pretty often is to uh

to develop World Championship winning

coaching meaning uh you know if I if I

get to be in an opportunity where I'm

the head coach per se then I'd love to

help grow and develop other people um to

help you know let them be head coaches

somewhere else as well so that's what

probably got me into my last position in

the Pentagon as the chief of uh Force

development where I got to do policy and

shape how we develop and grow our people

to include succession planning uh across

the entire force so is a passion of mine

and um I thought this would be a great

opportunity to talk to you about it yeah

and I think that that's another benefit

you know the military I did four years a

long time ago so I've been out longer

than I was a kid before joining at this

point but the military definitely FASTT

trcks leadership I feel like different

than any other business um within three

to four years in the military you're

leading other uh you know service

members within six years you're in

charge of a company of you know

effectively 40 50 60 people so you at

your last Duty station were senior

enlisted for how big of a unit there so

the unit so my last um position before

the Pentagon I would say because the

Pentagon I didn't lead a lot of people

um uh directly because I was doing more

policy and engagement for about 410,000

people across the globe uh but um before

that in last position where I was in a

senior leadership position um was in

Korea where it was about 500 people um

and we had a command team that oversaw

all the functions that maintain and

sustain and do all the construction uh

facility maintenance on the entire

installation which is about the size of

a small City okay so help my civilian

listeners because on the outside looking

in they might be thinking oh well that's

easy you come into a new Duty station

and you're just the top ranking person

so everybody has to listen to you so I

don't see what's so hard about leading

500 people when you're the highest

ranking one could you provide a little

context there for what's Difficult about

that is it a pull versus push and also

what the rank you know what it means to

be a senior enlisted uh personality unit

yeah that's that's a great question um

so I'm in the corporate world now and um

overseeing similar functions but of

course in a civilian environment some of

them are unionized some of them aren't

and um coming from the military I

discovered that there are so many things

that transfer and people are people it

doesn't matter right I think that a lot

of people perceive that in the military

I tell you what to do and you have to do

it well yes like I think that you know

there's of course um legal things that

drive that but at the same time people

are still people and from a human

resources perspective I can't fire you

you know what I mean like I have to

figure out how to make this work or we

have to figure out how to get rid of you

in a very long drawn out process right

it's almost like um working with um

Union Personnel right there's a lot more

steps to that so I think in in my

personal opinion there's not that much

of a difference so I can you know

somebody might say okay so you're coming

in and you're the leader of 500 people

how hard is that I was like well I mean

that'd be similar to walking into a

corporation that had a CEO and then they

left and maybe everybody even loved

maybe they hated him I don't know with

that him or her and now you're stepping

into that the challenges are going to be

very

similar gotcha okay and then again talk

to me about that that rank the like

where senior enlisted fits into for our

civilian audience yeah absolutely so

it's funny because I'm an HR business

partner now and really as a senior

enlisted leader that's almost like a SE

a a hybrid between an HR business

partner and an operations level manager

um for for an organization right so for

500 people um I would often I would be

charged with um working on all of the uh

strategizing the Workforce Development

workforce planning right making sure we

have the right people in the seats as

well as making sure they're developed

and of course out of that 500 people it

wasn't all military I had about a

hundred and some of them were civilian

employees uh federal employees and I

would advise my um commander and also um

Drive um some of those so my comeand

would like be the CEO maybe of of the

organization and um advise them on all

things people related I would also be

growing and mentoring the um the senior

enlisted leaders that were my

subordinates to ensure that they

understood how to fill my seat one day

while they were um and and giving them

advice on the operational piece of it

because the the cool thing about the

military is I did their job already

because the only way I could be in the

job I'm in now is if I've done their job

so we grow up into these positions so

providing a lot of mentorship and

guidance up down as well as um uh

providing Insight on the direction of

the entire uh Workforce yeah talk a

little bit about providing guidance up

because the military has an a Very

distinct enlisted versus officer path

and I know that when somebody comes into

a business and they're learning it and

they you know they plan on being an

owner they have a different relationship

with people who might have been there

for 15 20 30 years like I need to learn

this but at the same time I'm going to

end up being your boss probably within

the next four to five years so talk

about that role that that distinctive

line between officers and enlisted and

how you coach and lead and teach someone

who might be just out of college but

technically outranks you yeah that's

that's an interesting um Dynamic that we

that we shift into because a lot of

times um at the lower levels a senior

enlisted person um we're we're charged

with mentoring and developing our

leaders even though they outrank us

they're younger than us most often like

you described um a lot of that has to do

with set expectations beforehand I

believe we've created a structure where

that's standard like they know like a

person might outrank Me by but they know

that they don't have out experience me

so so so and also I'm closer to the

ground level of what's actually

happening um the the the PRI the

preponderance of the workforce has gone

through what I've gone through and not

gone through what that person's gone

through so um it behooves them to to

lean on um on your senior senior

enlisted leader to provide that um Sage

advice on which way to go I'm not saying

that I've seen everything but I've seen

a lot so we should probably have a

conversation and partner when we're um

dealing with whether it's an operational

issue or if it's an employee relation

issue um because the the results on the

other end are going to be more positive

than if you just make a decision and

then have to come back to me afterward

to clean up the mess so um so it's kind

of like an understood and and within the

military I know um Barrett you served

for a while as well it's most of our

best leaders when it comes to in the

command positions they understand that

they're typically more effective and

they're more successful because they

understand that they have um a person

like me in my role to provide that

advice and that's not really that

different than what I'm doing right now

as HR business partner I have account

directors that are responsible for the

leadership and the decision in the end

is theirs um not mine but it behooves

them to listen to me because I have a

connection up and down to their boss

also on how well they're doing and how

much they're listening so I think that

um a lot of these Matrix organizations

it just kind of works um it that the

expectation is already there but if it's

not I would highly um recommend that

having something like that you know

because it's if you're if you're making

decisions in a vacuum without people

that are very well experienced um on

something maybe you're not that

experienced on it's probably GNA result

in less than desirable effects yeah y

all right um I want to shift to a

specific succession event in your career

um I asked you to like pick one maybe

command or Duty station that you took

over because you've had over 24 years

you have do you know how many can you

count can you remember all of them yeah

I no not all of them um and this was

actually a tough one when you asked me

to think of one because I was like well

there's so many different ways we can go

with this conversation and um I was

trying to come narrow down to one

because I know we're not we're limited

on time so which one could bring the

most value to your audience um and I can

go with a couple and I think the one

that I would go that's probably most

relevant is when I got to Germany when I

got to Germany for um an assignment so

um just to set the the the foundation

was I had just finished a grueling tour

in um in Korea where the operations

Tempo was extremely high um it was

brutal what's that mean operations Tempo

meaning that um we were often times

working 16 hour shifts a day just to get

the work done um and oftentimes at half

a day on Saturday at minimum um the

reason why was because there was um the

best way to translate it is there's way

more work orders coming in than I have

people to get them done right so um when

you talk about an entire installation

you're talking about housing towers that

are out of heat because the

infrastructure is failing and I have to

have people over there but then the

dormatory over here goes down or no hot

water in the dining facility or the

child care facility doesn't have heat

for the kids you know it's like it was

every day it was something right um and

I've seen things I've never seen

anywhere else um that I've seen in Korea

just because of the age of the

infrastructure there so um it it was a

it was a grueling tour um with a lot of

turnover so I think I'd equate that to

retention rates in another organization

we just mve people in and out of Korea

because it's so hard um very quickly

meaning they're only there for about a

year so I would equate that to like

think about if you had a company and

every year you had a brand new staff

like

complete turnover complete

turnover so and then me you know I guess

I was a a masochist I decided to stay

there for two and a half years so I got

to see multiple rotations of people and

teach the same stuff over and over again

so um long story short that that was a

very tough tour and then I was very

happy to get to my next assignment in

Germany where um the infrastructure

wasn't as challenged and operations

Tempo was a lot more reasonable um so

but when I get there I just discovered

that you know you have different

problems and no matter where you go

there's going to be issues just a

different flavor of them and what it was

there was I had 600 people in that unit

and the work wasn't nearly as high so uh

when they weren't deployed somewhere

else doing some Mission they were at

home twiddling their thumbs and I don't

know Barrett you probably know when you

have a lot of free time when you're a

service member do not leave them

unsupervised so let's just say I had a

lot more more HR

issues the idol Idle Hands Are The

Devil's play thing that's about the

military yeah absolutely so I will say

that we had to work on um we had

meetings every Monday and Friday on all

the disciplinary issues we had and we

had to um honestly that was probably the

the the time where I had uh the most

that we actually had to evacuate out the

Air Force qu on expedite out you know

like you're no longer going to be part

of us um whether that's St cour Marshall

or other type of Separation strategies

um and that was probably I think I we

did six in the first couple months I was

there which is a high number of people

it um so yeah so that was that was that

was the one I land landed on when I

thought we could talk

about Story how long ago was this one um

this one was I got there in 2018 and I

left in 2020 okay so okay um so you are

coming out of a context where you're

just always technically busy and you're

going to a new Duty station you're like

oh this is going to be such a break and

you get there and all of a sudden now

you're very much um just Personnel busy

like the tempo is not where it was but

it you've just got lots of HR Personnel

issues that you've got to deal with

instead yeah yeah I have that and

surprisingly I have a lot of morale

issues um because when people have

everything that they probably ever

needed and they don't have a a lot of

things to do it seems like there's a lot

more complaining going on they lose

their life purpose what am I doing here

don't have anything to do all day yep

absolutely um so talk to me I want to

talk about getting up to speed in a new

Duty station the the shift that it takes

to step in because it's not like the

unit can say okay we need to take six

months off to get Joe up to speed on on

this so talk to me about that rapid

transition and how quickly you get up

you get the skills necessary to take

over this

job yeah so um you're you're 100% right

there's an expectation especially you're

if you're in a leadership position some

of the younger subordinates know they

get into their place and then there's a

standard on boarding with a sponsor

that's assigned to them to show them

what the base looks like they may even

need to go to some language classes

because you're in a foreign country

sometimes right um so there's there is

an onboarding platform um I discovered

that the higher you go in rank the less

less they think you need that so there's

you're just kind of dropped off into the

middle of the woods with a compass you

know and maybe half a map so you're

you're kind of looking through um the

lens of what's going on around here and

what's expected of me and as a senior

enlisted leader something that I tell

people often is that you're not the

commander of the unit so your job is to

support the commander of the unit and

what I mean by that is find out what

that Commander's strengths and

weaknesses are so so that you can fit

fit and adapt to that situation to fit

that role and find out what the unit

needs um because every unit's different

even though we have the same Mission

overall um the the unit's different so

find out what the strengths and

weaknesses of the unit are and what are

the um the the problems that you can

actually address and deal with because

there's probably going to be a handful

of problems that you just either don't

have the um capacity to deal with

immediately because they're super

complex or um or they're things that you

just have no control over so um identify

those things early so that you can you

can start using your time managing your

time

effectively talk to me about that

adaptability that you described because

I know in leadership there's a lot of

emphasis on oh you just need to work in

your strengths and if you have

weaknesses you just need to hire people

to shore them up that's great but

sometimes being a leader also means

adapting and developing new strengths so

talk to me a little bit about that

because I know that you also know what

your strengths are and what you're

strongest at but also the mission

sometimes requires something different

yeah I would say that adaptability you

know um there's a couple great abilities

I think that every leader needs to have

one of them is

dependability uh one of them is

availability you know I tell my people

all the time one of the greatest

abilities you can have is availability

like are you available are you always

hurt are you broken are you sick all the

time I mean I I I get it you have issues

but if you're not on the field you're

not available you know I don't know how

effective you could be for us right so a

big one for me is adaptability as well

and I think um I can go on a tangent

about this bar but but adapt setting it

up for you yeah adaptability is I think

one of the key skills of any leader

because if you're going to walk into an

organization and tell everybody that

they need to adapt to you you're going

to not last very long in these

leadership roles right um uh you you

need to adapt I believe that leadership

is about serving your organization

serving your the people above you

serving your clients your customers as

well as your subordinates right and and

giving them um the resources tools and

also maybe instilling the discipline

that they need but that takes

adaptability because you have to be able

to adapt to the different people you

have the different environment you're in

um the different things that might

happen case in point covid like you can

if anybody just contined to lead and

execute the way that they were doing

before covid during Co I'm sure they

didn't do very well right I mean you

have to be able to adapt to different

situations that's one thing I think the

military teaches us very well because we

have to adapt for a war that we don't

understand is happening yet right like

we don't know what it's going to look

like um we call them volatile and

certain complex and biguous environments

we don't know what it's going to be so

we have to prepare for um anything right

sometimes that leads to a downfall but

uh because we end up doing a lot of just

in case training uh that spends a lot of

time on things that we

uh maybe won't ever face but but It

prepares leaders It prepares us very

well so um so to me you know a Leader's

role is to be able to adapt as a senior

enlisted leader my job is to find out

what the unit needs you know uh what

does my commander need what does my boss

need and there's been times where um my

boss was very introverted and um was

very much about task management and and

some of those other long-term projects

and stuff like that which is great um a

lot of commanders are by the way and uh

and I needed to be I got to lean on my

strengths to be what um some people

would say maybe an inspirational leader

being the one that goes out and is

active and visible in front of my people

and got to lean on some of those

strengths which um which which I I

thrive in but I've also been part of a

command team where where the boss was

very much the person that wanted to be

out front he that he was not

administratively inclined um he was very

much uh uh the person who had to be the

LA had the last word no matter what and

the first word so you know and but but

but um what he needed was somebody to

make sure that all of the administrative

things that the organization needed to

continue to move forward were were done

by somebody else and that's where I fell

into and is that in my in my job jar my

job jar is whatever my leadership needs

and whatever my unit needs so yes so did

I have to adapt to that absolutely

because that is not something that I

thrive in and when I went home that I

was I more tired because it wasn't

something I enjoyed doing yes but um it

was what the what the unit needed and

leaders do what the unit

needs talk to me a little bit about the

difference I guess between adaptation

and

abdication because you do need to adapt

and you do need to maybe reach outside

your comfort zone on some skills but you

also don't I I mean at some point you

need to make the decision you can't just

say well I'm going to adapt to the

junior leaders around me or I'm going

to do you see a difference there or

maybe just Riff on that for a minute

yeah that this is a good conversation

yeah I think that um it's a good thing

to talk about I think that leadership

operates in a gray so there's not

necessarily like a okay you should do it

this way and you should do it this way I

actually wrote um so I'm working on a

book right now and there's a full piece

on how I read out leaderships in art and

not a science and if you try to break it

down to a science you're going to be

like very very much disappointed in your

results right so um I do think that

there are

um there there is a you have to strike

that that steady balance between um just

being there and adjusting to every

single whim that happens right or every

single um thing that somebody wants you

know uh

and and but you do have to adapt you

need to grow and continue adapt so where

do you find the balance in that to me I

think it's in what you what your

foundation is in and your values as a

person and also your organizational

values what is the what is the value the

organization value and be able to look

at that and determine okay what is what

is it that we accept and what is it that

we don't accept um and by the way if

your values start to deviate so far from

your organizational values that you have

a hard time doing this it might be time

to go look for something else right

because you're just going to be

miserable and you're going to have a

hard time but but I think balancing out

your personal values and what you know

is right and wrong and having those

foundational things your principles your

core values and also balancing that uh

out with the organizational values what

we as spouse is the way that we want our

team to operate um now you have a

foundational framework to operate from

when people are adapt going back and

forth on okay um should should we let

everybody walk in with cut off sleeves

you know we're trying to keep a

professional environment but is that

something you know the the the young

kids like that now I'm making all of

this up the young kids like cut off

sleeves nowadays do we want to sh I was

like that isn't who we are right you

know what I mean I think those are the

conversations that you need to have to

determine when adaptability is the right

thing versus you know when when you need

to hold a hold a line yeah yeah cuz

adaptability can definitely be a

superpower but at some point you know

when you say the customer's always right

for example this is my riff when you say

the customer's always right then you're

going to end up doing 50 different

things for 50 different

customers and I always say the customer

is not always right but the right

customer is right most of the time and

that's kind of how I adapt it because

you can have wrong customers in your

company demanding you adapt to their

needs and and what they want and you

just need to get rid of those but you're

what you're talking here is really I as

a leader need to adapt to what my

organization core values are or my

organization uh delivery is what we

stand for as a company um and we're not

going to adapt that we're going to

determine what that is and say this is

what you get when you come to us and if

you don't want this then you need to go

somewhere else yeah and when companies

corporations and organizations when they

start wavering on some of those

foundational values is this is where I

see stuff going left really fast where

standards are are uh un misunderstood we

don't even know what we what are we

doing coming to where we have no idea

what is this and it and it actually

makes customers angry because they

because they don't you don't have the

dependability that you talked about

there and they don't know what the

consistent product is that they're going

to get get they're going to get a lot of

delivery based off of whim and based off

of well I just had to adapt to this

client over here and I forgot I was

adapting to them and now I switched over

to you and you were W expecting that so

yeah yeah that's like trying to please

everybody I mean just think about think

about just your family if you have a big

family imagine like trying to actually

please every single person and family

with every decision you make good

luck yep I have one person I need to

please yeah and it's not my kids yep

100% yeah okay um let's talk about

dealing with people within an

organization that do not adapt that have

been there longer than you that know how

things are done around here and you're

the new person coming into this Duty

station in Germany do you have any kind

of

specific uh I guess specific people in

mind or specific situations in mind

where you did meet kind of like an

entrenched and well you're only going to

be here for a year or two anyways and

this is the way we do things here um

you're you're always going to have those

um you know we have we have an

interesting mix when we blend a bunch of

of um

military people coming in with a bunch

of Civilian workers that have already

been on the team for 20 plus years and

and by the way I give a hearty salute to

those people because I can only imagine

watching a new me come in every two

years I mean

I and having to adapt to every situation

right so um it's easy to become

entrenched C right absolutely and I

think that you know um what what I've

seen work out for me is like hey why are

they

entrenched you know I mean like just

walking in with some authentic curiosity

and honoring the them while you're doing

any changes right but why are they

entrenched a lot of times people are

like oh that per like uh Barrett's just

in trench he's not going to change he's

just the way he is like has anybody

asked him why why doesn't he like this

thing you know maybe he is just um get

off my lawn Barrett but maybe he's seen

this try 16 times in different ways and

we're not saying that it can't work

again this way but maybe he maybe he

just wants to be included in the change

maybe we should value his wisdom and

experience of seening this Groundhog's

Day of leadership over and over again

trying to do the same thing right I I've

seen a lot of times that the lack of

communication uh and and also by the way

um unfreezing the organization to feel

the need for change is skipped a lot of

times we don't even go to that um Dr

Kurt Luan used to say you know there's

three simple stages simple but not easy

to execute

unfreeze change and then refreeze by

codifying in sub type of policy and

usually the two parts that are skipped

are the the unfree by making your people

understand that there's a reason for

some type of change uh you just change

it or you might think you communicated

but you told the three people in the

room at the time and then and and then

then the the last part is actually like

codifying the change and if you see

organizations constantly changing it's

probably because they haven't actually

um codified or put into policy the

change the the the refreeze

part so the unfreeze you know you're

going to be there two years and they're

like what do we need to change for yeah

you're going to be gone and the next

person is going to want to change this

anyway so you have to make make them see

the house is burning here before you

tell them get out of the house right so

yeah yeah and then also like um I just

would ask like any leader that walks

into an organization where you're

military or not we we all have this idea

of how we want to lead and have this

agenda like I don't I know agenda has a

negative connotation but we all have

this idea this game plan that we have um

let's just make sure the change isn't

stupid anyway like you know I mean that

it apply is because maybe they don't

like your change because it's dumb like

I don't maybe they're right right maybe

they're right

okay maybe they are right and you have

to accept that in you know in humility

you have to be like you're right I I

understand now what you've done with the

past eight people in my position that

have changed this tried to change this

over the past 16

years or you've listened to them and you

found out why they're entrenched but

they're still not budging like have you

have you had any situations with that or

maybe

where you got them to budge but before

you got them to that point they already

got three or four of their co-workers

all against you and they're just like

it's it's going to be hard to break that

up now because they've kind of like

formed this team around not listening to

Joe the new guy any situations like that

that come to mind oh yeah I've seen them

I mean you can do the best when it comes

to managing the change you can

articulate the change you can explain it

to them although like I said I'll tell

you that most of the times it's because

we don't do a good enough job at that

right to to really be able to um sell

the change I guess and then really back

it up with data and and you know and

show people where they are and the

change um you go through all of that and

they're still like I don't feel like

doing this I was like but we are doing

this you know like I mean I mean I was

gonna ask like at what point does it

well I'm I'm the you know chief Master

Sergeant this is what we're doing yeah

yeah how how soon do you pull out that

that trump card there how soon do you

just say well this is what we're doing

or this is what the you know this is

what uh Captain says we're doing or

whatever the case might be yeah I think

that um and this is the same I I've been

in the corporate world same thing some

like leadership says this is what we're

doing so I don't know why this is a

negotiation right um we'd love to get

your feedback on how we could do it the

best way possible but it's not like

we're we're like taking votes on whether

or not we're doing this right I think um

like clarifying clarifying expectations

hey team this is is the direction in

which we're going and this is why um if

you have an issue with this you're very

open to communicate that and also

provide an alternative method to get to

still that that's that change that we're

moving towards um we'd love for you to

be involved in this right because you're

the ones on the ground that knows um

however if you're just going to come and

say you don't want to do it and you

can't back up the reason why it's not a

good idea um then then we're just that

that conversation is just not one that

we can entertain right now because we

are on a timetable so I I do I don't

like pulling the um the you know the

trump card on somebody because I just

don't think that I think that's a

shortterm answer right because because

sometimes if you can't sell them on the

change what happens is they may agree to

your face and they slow it down

somewhere else down the line you're just

going to deal with that problem

somewhere right um but but I think that

um you know bringing them into the fold

explain to and putting in some

Frameworks you know something that I

learned a lot earlier from um somebody

that I look up to was Implement a two

butt Rule and make that a very uh early

early discussion with your team it's

like hey I have a two butt Rule and what

I mean by that is when I am um set or

the directions coming down that we're

going in a direction um you could say

hey but Chief I don't think this is a

good idea because blank and I am going

to be very happy to receive that but

Chief right please um yep but if you

still haven't uh changed my mind in that

one butt use your last butt sparingly

because we got two be very careful

because you got two butts to to to

convince me otherwise before we're going

locked up and you're going to be

agreeance on this or we're going to do a

coach out type you know we're either

coaching up or we're coaching out around

here so so you know those are those are

some of thing I think laying out that

foundational expectation early um is

very important so choose your second one

wisely because you're not going to get a

third and if you wasted it on something

Petty or small then you're going to

regret it yeah yeah I value you I value

your your input but let's let's make

sure we have blind spots and we do make

decisions and we don't consider

ramifications how it's going to affect

somebody over here or a contract or

something like that so so we do need to

see those but if you're if every time I

bring you something you're like but what

about but what about that but what about

this but what about that and it's like

well no we're heading in this direction

let's figure out what needs to be

adapted while we head in that direction

but you're not going to talk us out of

that direction as a whole we might shift

a little but it's not 180 yep I'm about

improving disolution I'm not about

sabotaging disolution with a whole bunch

of whatevers you know yeah so what is it

about Germany specifically as we're

talking about these you know this moving

into a new Duty station dealing with

inch power all that kind of stuff that

brought that one to mind the the reason

why this one came to mind for me was

because it's funny because um the change

thing wasn't an issue it was so messed

up that they when I gave them my

strategic 100 days change plan which I

did I'm a nerd I created a 100 days

change strategy and presented to him

after I watched for a good amount of

time that I felt was reasonable which

was more than more than a couple weeks I

just kind of saw how they were operating

um where I could see some efficiencies

um that we could probably improve

processes and um I had four high

performing uh managers all they were

senior listed and they were just

excellent um very different

personalities four Alphas so you can

imagine four Alphas in one in close

proximity I mean there was some issues

there every now and then but they were

high performers um they wanted to get

after it and they were working

ridiculous

like equivalent to that the hours that

we worked in Korea was significantly

less work and and B and I I kind of said

I was like I have four horsemen here

I'll running in different directions you

know I mean and and it's the reason why

we're so disorganized here so I actually

came up this plan I said hey and I and I

went to the full refreeze I mean

unfreeze with them and I remember one of

my guys just said hey chief I don't care

what you have in that plan I'm for it

because it can't be worse than what

we're doing right now nice I got one I

got one sweet yeah they were like change

anything like you know what I mean so um

but in reality I think that the previous

um operating strategy just wasn't

efficient and it was all last minute so

it was creating a toxic environment on

accident through

mismanagement so um in that situation um

the the Personnel issues still happen we

still had HR issues because you know the

but but we were able to gain

efficiencies in that um through me

selling them on the plan asking them hey

just trust me let's do this for 90 days

and see if you get more time back and

with the time you get back don't fill it

up with more administer I want you spend

that time with your troops get out there

and go see your people but I promise you

right now you don't have time to go see

your people you have no idea what's

going on so you can't be there to

prevent things you know you don't know

what's going on it all becomes reactive

around here um but we we're GNA set some

aggressive timelines on all the things

that we have to do and with that

aggressive timeline you're going to have

more time back I promise you and um and

and and they they went for it at least

initially so I mean what's that look

like they're already working hard and

you're G you're going to come in and

tell them for the next 90 days you're

going to work even

harder so how I mean how are you how are

you setting up guide point uh guide

posts or just like checkpoints and

saying this is how I know it's improving

and we're not just killing ourselves for

another 90 days to find out the next 90

days we need to do it again yeah so um

what what what I did was through

Straight data right I'm watching them

and I'm seeing why they're having so

much struggles one of the things that I

saw that was happening was that they

were getting um deadlines too late like

something was due in two days right when

they should have got it a lot earlier

because earlier down the line the task

didn't get to them fast enough right and

then there was stuff that we already

know is going to be due it's a cyclical

thing it's HR you know what I mean you

have a one-ear cycle of when you know

performance evaluations are due you know

when Talent is looked at you know all of

these things in a year it doesn't change

maybe the day of the month might change

but you know it's due I mean like we all

know when taxes are due right I mean

like you would be

surprised people are surprised by it

every year it's April again oh yeah I

just it's just wild like okay like why

is this always so so how about this is

that we actually have process in which

you already know the dates well Advanced

and also you have to turn in your

products well in advance because we have

such a high volume when we have 600

people could you imagine 600 performance

evaluations you have to funnel through

so we we created processes and

aggressive timelines and when they saw

it and I came out with a wellth thought

out plan they I'm not saying that they

weren't like skeptical but when they

looked at it they were like this is

something at least there's some

structure here and as it it moved on

they started noticing they were getting

time back so it was like you have to not

only show the long um the long plan of

the 90 days but you can't be looking at

a 90day thing in lag time right you have

to be like okay these are the quick wins

we're going to have along those 90 days

where you're going to see some of the

benefits of this and um and and then if

it's not working somewhere we're going

to do you use an agile method to to make

some iterations throughout the process

but you you know doing all those things

in concert with one another I will tell

you one of my leaders came to me and

just said Chief I was super skeptical

but I actually have a lot more time on

my hands now you know he he said the

word aggressive timeline scared me at

the beginning but but I have way more

time on my hands now how do you as the

senior going through your managers get

that word down to the ones that are

below them that are actually the ones

delaying it or do you wait on your

managers to do it because you've got to

unfreeze that lower level too there's

not a problem for them they're getting

their stuff done it's late but they're

they're not working the hours that that

manager level is and so they're in their

minds's like there's no problem here I'm

not working 80 hour weeks they are right

right so um so part of that is just

first having the communication setting

the expectation um I think a lot of

times a conversation doesn't happen

early because you're so you're just

trying to you're you're just trying to

stay above water right so so you're not

having development conversations and

you're probably not having a lot of

expectation conversations when when

you're literally just trying to tread

water so um having investing on the

front end and explaining to them this is

our way and um it was interesting what I

would like I had I had to create some

unifying uh mantra for our team and it

was called protect a family name we

don't want our stuff late we don't want

you know what I mean and I actually had

my team print out big or unit emblem and

it protect the family name on every exit

and entrance of the building so that

people saw on the way out like you're in

a football game team right you're going

into the tunnel and uh and they and they

they really started and and this is me

just being able to see this is the type

of team I have this is going to work

with them because of the personalities I

had and and it started working out the

the conversation had earlier and you

know what's important part of that is

you set the expectation and you hold

your people accountable to them if they

don't meet the expectation you have a

follow- on conversation and after that

you start documenting performance and um

and and it may impact their career if

they can't meet a cut mustard for the

team gotcha how did you start to see

measure the progress so you're talking

about annual reviews and you're talking

about a 90day turnaround for something

that might not happen I don't know maybe

it was at the end of the 90 days maybe

it was in the middle but it in some

cases it might be six or seven months

from now how did you know the work we're

doing here in these 90 days is going to

pay off when that annual uh project

comes up up so it was um so it wasn't

just I used the performance evaluations

as one component which in the um in the

in the military we go off a cycle at

least in the Air Force I'll speak to the

Air Force we go in Cycles depending on

what rank you are so there's always yeah

there's never a there's never a moment

where you're not working on on some of

these things right um but there was a

lot of other administra that coms that

we know that needs to be done or reports

or anything else that comes that you

know um the gauge was when that was

coming in on time or early um you know

just really evaluating that um having

those

conversations um roring people when

they're not meeting the expectation

right and then something else that I

would offer for a team and is and you

know how you would do this and in your

different businesses is totally up to

you but I think it's very relevant in

corporate world as well as is the

military is if you're not tracking it

it's not

important like if you're not tracking it

nobody sees it as important right so so

so if during your whatever you have a

staff meeting or whatever if that's

something if that's a metric that's

important to you and you're not going

over it and looking around and people

have to present their own metric and why

they why they're at wherever they're

at then you're not holding them

accountable so it's not important to

them because it seems like it's not

important to you because you're not even

spending any time on this so I wouldn't

say measure everything ever and like

have a 4-Hour staff meeting by any means

but if it's important enough to you and

you a spouse from your organization this

is important evaluations our performance

evaluations on time is important because

it makes sure that our people are

recognized appropriately on time right

um uh sponsorship making sure that when

a new member joins our team that they

have somebody assigned to them and

they're checking on them and then when

they get here they're going to sponsor

them through their entire onboarding if

I don't see a name next to that new

person that's supposed to be here in a

month then you're not doing your job but

if I'm not if I say sponsorship is

important and onboarding an important

but I don't have anything on my screen

to hold people accountable and I'm not

tracking it then they don't guess what

sponsorship isn't going to be taken

seriously in my organization so I use

those just those examples of making sure

that you measure the things that you

think are important I I I just want to

take a pause here let's get some ages of

yourself at this Duty station and your

your higher enlisted and then the people

that they're supervising because I know

in the military you're what at this

stage in Germany

30s yeah was that was that 2018 so yeah

uh now I'm 43 so how many years ago was

yeah six years ago yeah 35 36 yeah yeah

about that time 37 okay and your

managers your four uh hard Chargers that

are all heading in opposite directions

what are how old are they they're

ranging between 35 to uh to probably

about 44 I had some of them that were um

that significantly older than me oh okay

interesting I I'm picturing somebody

who's been in eight years so they're

probably 26 27 years old here but that

wasn't the case in this situation they

they were um E8 so they were over each

of them were over hundreds of people so

there are the team that and that's

probably a good point right here they

were the team that had to get on board

first right they they were the ones that

are going to Cascade those expectations

down and I did go meet all the work

centers as well now typically uh the

people working the functional work

center levels there they could be

anywhere between you know that were're

actually um overseeing those were

anywhere between 27 to 35 probably

gotcha okay so in the Air Force I'm in

the Marine Corps we have the admin side

of the enlisted and we've got the

technical side so you're talking here

more like department heads these

managers were department heads where

you're over all the enlisted within the

company yep gotcha okay and so there you

are you know I guess I'm just

the reason I'm going here or or talking

about this is you know a lot of people

say well you can't work with Gen Z it

used to be you can't work with

Millennials uh you can't work with Gen Z

you can't work with Gen Alpha they just

don't care at 23 24 years old and you

and I both know we've seen that's not

true because some of the most amazing

young men and women that we've ever seen

are that that age and doing amazing

things and held to a standard and living

up to that standard talk about that for

a second just from an HR position like

we did joke you give them too much time

on their hands and they get into trouble

but talk about holding them to a

standard and then seeing them live up to

that and just surpass your

expectations yeah you know what's man

there's a couple things I want to share

about this one I would say that there's

such a weird like I don't know if people

just forget when they were younger like

I know I was an idiot when I was 22 like

I mean I was like I mean yeah I'm just

glad social media wasn't a thing you

know I was I wasn't projecting

everything out there but I was like yeah

I was like I know I was a dummy like but

at the same time I had quite a bit of

responsibility because I was early on in

in uh my military career um but I don't

think that like even

entitlement I'm not saying that the that

the uh

we can get into a full gen Z

conversation here but I don't think that

you know entitlement is is exclusive to

gen Z right I've seen some older

teammates that are just completely

entitled to whatever right so I think

it's a cultural thing right um a lot of

other things kind of run in cause that

issue um but

yeah young the the the Gen Z

team okay let me go with this you're

when you're um when you're uh you talked

about we to get canell here I know no

there just so many things I want to talk

about this and I'm trying to like make

this uh into a place where it makes all

sense right it's it's not just word uh

stream of thought here but but when you

had talked about like the amazing things

that um our young folks do I will tell

you that you know the noble cause is

serving I've seen some Wild Things um

I've seen a 18 18 or 19 year old and a

22y old you know they're probably at E3

E4 right um I've seen

them uh towing a giant

aircraft and while they were Towing the

aircraft clip the wing while bringing it

into the hanger causing millions of

dollars of

damage and this is where I'm going with

this people are like I can't believe

they did that this is insane I'm like I

can't believe that that's the only time

they've ever done that they've probably

done that a they've probably brought

that aircraft in a thousand times that

kid's equivalent on the outside world

his biggest or her biggest concern right

now is whether or not you want onions on

your hamburger right I mean like like

that P that person's Towing

multi-million dollars worth of assets

they are doing calculations on aircraft

to make sure they don't come down and

kill people right they are doing things

like that we're the level of

responsibility

that we're putting on some of these

young service members is just

astronomical it's almost like just like

inconceivable to somebody who hasn't

experienced it like you and I right so

to see those things right the leadership

the development the responsibility right

now do we not have issues with some

entitlement with some of our gen Z

coming in um yeah they also we also had

it with Millennials and we also had it

with generation it's the standard when

you go you leave high school and you go

into the military at years old you've

got some behavioral issues that are

going to be corrected y absolutely going

all the way back to Vietnam I guarantee

it we call it conforming to standards

that's right yeah and I mean that's kind

of where I'm going with this you were in

one duty station in South Korea where it

was just like 16 hour days and those 19

22 year olds they're working those 16

hour days probably complaining but we

always complain while we get the job

done we gripe while we work kind of

thing but then you flip them over to

Germany and now they're sitting around

not doing anything getting into trouble

and stuff like that yeah you weren't you

were never a drill drill surgeon right I

was you never spent any time on the

drill field so they came to you already

having gone through this conforming

stage this this is who we are this is

what the Air Force stands for but we

have to remind them of that sometimes

and I I think that that's part of our

job as leadership is reminding them what

the mission is why the mission is bigger

than their Monday through

Friday and hold them to that and call

them to that and they want to be called

to that and I think that that's why we

see a lot of entitlement and complaining

about them is we're not holding them to

any kind of standard we're just like

show up get paid leave and do whatever

you want you don't even have to work

that hard while you're here will be

happy with 80% 70% whatever the case

might be talk a little bit about that

about holding them to the standard

reminding them of who they are as a as a

leader yeah I think you know you talked

about a little bit like we need to give

them Grace because I don't know how we

forgot how dumb we were you know when we

were coming through and we think about

things like oh we weren't never like

that I was like maybe you weren't maybe

you were extra special right but this is

not that far from the norm but yeah

holding them accountable holding giving

them responsibility um I was actually

reading Generation Z unfiltered um the

other day and uh and it's a great book

and there was a point where the guy

talked about how he texted um he was

actually teaching his uh it was a

college course or something I can't

remember what it was it was a professor

and um and they sent something his

student texted him and he asked him

something about you know um who's gonna

do this who's going to set up the lesson

plan or whatever for the the course and

the teacher went sent back a text that

said um that I will do that and if you

look at where I and you are on the on on

most qu keyboards Tech you know like on

the on the cell phone they're pretty

close he meant I but he actually just

put the letter you so so the student was

like I gotta do it and then guess what

the student did he did it he did it with

his team and then they and then so when

the teacher came in he didn't even real

he never went back to that message just

made his lesson came in and then they

were all ready to teach and he was like

what is happening right now and by the

way they taught a very well thought out

course and he just sat there and was

like Wow and I was like and it kind of

just goes to it if you like cuy says all

the time if you want to you want people

to be responsible give them some

responsibilities and and of course what

comes at that is holding them

accountable to those you know to to the

the results of those things and and I

think that a lot of times you know we

forget if they if if this generation is

so entitled how' they get that

way they didn't raise themselves right

yeah yeah how did they get that way you

know I mean you're like ah how come my

person doesn't want to drive he's 27

years old I was like I was like I don't

know why don't they you know

so all right uh wrap up wrap up Germany

for us um I want to

know since you are going to be there

just for two years maybe you know that

ahead of time sometimes you don't um

like you said you got switched around

four times in four years there at the

end how do you know or I guess how do

you decide which of your changes need to

stick with an organization and which of

them need to be flexible enough for the

next person coming in so that they're

not compared

to well Chief Joe was here before you

and he was awesome and you're never

going to measure

up de Joe I'm sure that's never been

said but um you know but I think it's

very common I've I've come into many

organizations and they're like oh so and

so I wish they would have done this I'm

so glad you're here and I'm like okay

okay when I was younger I was like you

know I probably took that as like oh

yeah that's a little bit of a ego boost

and then then as I'm older I'm realized

like oh yeah they probably said the same

thing about me when I left you know I

mean like uh it was their turn to lead

they had to you know they had different

circumstances than me but um but I would

I would offer that you should consider

what processes that you can put into

place that are just going to make things

effective uh with with whatever the the

mission requirement is and if you can do

that everything else should be fluid

like how do they approach these

different things like but when you can

come to I've always told people if you

can get a hold of the administrative

burden in your organization I mean

whether that's now utilizing AI to

automate some of it like you know what I

mean if you can get a hold because if

you have a large organization you have a

lot of bureaucracy I don't care if you

like I mean I I have this saying

everybody hates bureaucracy except for

the bureaucracy they create themselves

they I mean they love that bureaucracy

right so um so there's going if you're

in a large organization there's going to

be a lot of that there's going to be a

huge administrative burden that comes

with that how do you get a hold of that

right and if your organization can get a

hold of that by by implementing

processes Systems and leveraging

Technology you have this cool

opportunity to actually lead because

you're not just doing administrative

work all day so how do you get a hold of

that so I think that when you when I get

to an organization yes I want everybody

to feel valued I strike the balance of

making sure that people feel SE seen

heard understood and valued um from me

individually as much as I can to my team

right I've heard this on your podcast it

was the first I'd heard that acronym of

shoved so yeah shoved so go go over that

a little bit again shoved yeah so um so

people you know no matter what I don't

care of who you are if you're a high

performer if you're not a high performer

humans you know we want to be seen heard

and valued whenever I've had these

employee relations issues a lot of times

is the person wasn't seen heard

understood or valued or a combination of

of of a couple of them right um I've had

issues where people I was literally as

the HR person or the leader in a unit

was the first person to actually listen

to their

perspective they were they were already

judged before you know uh uh they even

probably hit the ground for whatever

reason right um so I think just being

able to to do and it and it's it's not

hard it doesn't cost a lot it takes some

time but learning about people hey ask

talking to them like human beings it

doesn't matter what level of leadership

you're in um finding out what their

aspirations are um a lot of people uh in

leadership seems like they try to

project their aspirations or what their

aspirations were onto their people and

assume that you want to be like me one

day so this is how you do it it's like

has anybody asked them if that's even

what they're interested in right right

so I think that um doing those things uh

it's an important part of leadership

right but a going back to the other

piece is I think creating processes and

this is business 101 right if you're

creating a business you are trying to

develop processes to make sure your

business you meet your business goals

right so the more processes that are

repeatable sustainable that you can

create the more effective your

organization is going to be and if

you're going to leave a legacy it should

be walking out of a place with processes

that they can tweak and make better but

they can they can operate from and

somebody says man Barrett he's the one

that listened to me he made me feel like

I was a person like I was seen like he

didn't treat me like just another

employee if you can do both of those

things you know you're going to leave a

longlasting legacy of leadership because

that's what it should be about when when

I say processes you know somebody told

me this one time I think I was going to

a business course and they were saying

you know Barrett Joe all of us we could

we could all build probably make a

Better Burger than McDonald's we can all

make a Better Burger than McDonald's but

can you but why do they build but they

make a billion Burgers they sell a

billion Burgers can you do that that's

the dis difference between longlasting

Legacy and you making your one burger

right I mean like how do you create

something that's that's sustainable

repeatable and and long lasting I think

those are the two things you should

focus on as a leader as you as you move

from one stage to the

next awesome Joe this has been great

having you on here I don't think this is

the last time that'll happen we

definitely have a lot more stuff we can

get into um was there anything before we

jump into the lightning round that that

you wanted to add to our conversation

here today yeah um first of all I just

want to say thank you so much bar for um

this opportunity I hope we didn't go in

so many different directions that people

are like what are we listening to right

now but but um you know I just wanted to

say that um you know whether you're an

entrepreneur setting up a business or or

your um you know leader um in in your

organization of whatever type it might

be um just remember you shouldn't be

seeing competition so in a way that

you're you feel like you're doing

everything alone um you know I think

having seeing compet competition in a

way that you can grow and work together

and collaborate on things and create

win-win environments I think that's very

important that you should look at to

incorporate into your strategy um

there's a reason why you drive down a a

street and you see a whole bunch of

different car uh car dealers and one

street is they all competing against

each other but guess what them being

next to each other brings more foot

traffic through right so how do you

create more of those win-win situations

how do you create the shopping mall

environment that even though you're Nike

and you're competing yes Under Armor um

more people coming into the same area

where you you're doing business is going

to be a win for both of you right so

just just seeing competition in a

different way and reframing it I think

could be very impactful to any business

strategy nice interesting I I mean

that's almost that sounds like an answer

to our lightning round so are are you

ready for the lightning round yeah

absolutely all right let's get into it

uh coffee or tea and how do you like it

uh I like coffee and generally I'll have

some uh MCT oil in it otherwise just

black okay uh pie or cake and do you

have a specific kind oh man I have to

pick between these two um I am going to

go with uh carrot cake love it oh all

right awesome so this is the the joke

that I alluded to uh what's a common

belief among entrepreneurs that you

would want to

challenge yeah it's the competition

thing and I guess I'll just say is like

you don't have to do things on your own

so not just in inside an organization

but also just in an industry is that

that's what you're getting at with that

yeah yeahuh you don't you don't have to

just feel like you have to be the you

know bootstrapping yourself up like I

think that there's a lot of room for

collaboration and win-win um win-win

opportunities those peer communities I

mean we say that all the time me and my

partner say that about other CPA firms

there's like there's so much work that

needs to be done we don't have to be the

ones to do it all so yep absolutely

awesome uh your favorite holiday and why

uh Thanksgiving because it's centered

around gra gratitude and you also get

some a lot of food and

football can't you and your wife's food

pictures uh make me jealous on a nightly

basis it

seems so that's that's my passion making

some dinner for my wife Nice um are you

a morning person or a night person and

do you have a favorite routine

yeah I'm a morning person um I even in

my retirement working in my corporate

job that starts much later in the day

than my old job did I still wake up at

the same time I love uh waking up

reading some scripture maybe a

devotional um getting my workout in and

then writing um I'm I'm I'm WR working

on my book but I've always been like a

person that loves to write so those are

um that's kind of my routine do you have

a uh do you have a publishing date for

your book or draft or I'm shooting for

potentially like April May of of next

year what is one thing you know you've

had multiple successors just going from

Duty station to duty station but what's

one thing that you would that you want a

successor to remember that steps into

your shoes and like Joe was here what's

that one thing is uh yeah that the

people felt like he was that he he you

know heard seen heard and understood and

valued them and he also said it's up for

success with some great processes uh

where do you find creativity right now

uh right now I'm finding it uh in a odd

place but

um so I cut my own hair and

interestingly enough when I'm cutting my

own hair I always have the best ideas so

I need to like find like whether it's

writing or whatever so I usually have to

have something near me you know it's a

relaxing situation for me where you know

I'm just kind of working on that my

fade and and then like the greatest

ideas pop up and I start uh start

writing that stuff down interesting you

peel off the layer of the old hair and

it allows the light bulb to

connect awesome uh last question um what

do you have coming up in the in the next

year that's got you really excited um I

have um a couple business opportunities

uh you know transitioning out as a

military member I have a couple business

opportunities that are coming up um I'm

I've discovered I'm not really the

person that is the person who builds the

business um it's just not my bag but I

am more like a 1099 employee that wants

to latch on to other people so there's a

bunch of speaking engagements a couple

other opportunities that are coming up

in this next year that I'm really really

excited about uh Joe I know one of the

answers to this is going to be your

podcast but uh where can people find out

more about you and hear more from you

yeah um you could hit me up on LinkedIn

um uh jyb you should be able to find Joe

Bogden on there um I'll come up um on

LinkedIn and you can also uh email me at

jyden at uh Waypoint front.com uh visit

my website Waypoint front.com and you'll

get a whole bunch of free resources on

development I'm in the middle of a

transformation right now on it um as I

said I'm I'm kind of realizing that the

business side isn't for me but I do love

to create content to help people grow so

I'm transforming the website a little

bit but that's a great place and then of

my podcast as you mentioned uh is

Waypoint better podcast we believe that

better has no finish line so we talk

about all things professional and

personal Improvement awesome thank you

so much Joe it's been a pleasure

appreciate it thank you so much Barrett

it was a great honor you've been

listening to the art of succession

podcast with your host Barrett young

twice a month we'll bring you interviews

sharing the successes and challenges

from business owners with their own

succession Stories the art of succession

is sponsored by gwcp and is provided for

informational purposes only before

engaging in any transaction you should

consult your own adviser if you've

enjoyed this episode please share it

with others and we'll see you on the

next one