The Art of Succession

and that's why I love business like I'll

never stop being in business as much as

you know I have scars and have been you

know beaten up from it um because there

is something really wonderful about

somebody had an idea about something and

they wanted to bring it to the world and

they wanted to have an impact it worked

but it probably wasn't going to serve

the company moving forward because it

really wasn't in line with the things

that had changed and advanced with

technology my name is Barry young and

this is the art of succession podcast my

guest today is Lisa D an executive coach

and Leadership practitioner in Calgary

Alberta Lisa and her husband purchased a

travel and tour agency in

2016 and is on the podcast today to walk

us through the painful lessons that she

learned from per purchasing and

subsequently closing a business Lisa

thank you so much and welcome to the

artist succession great thank you Barett

it's great to be here yeah really

interested in this topic um a lot of

stuff is said online about business

success about business acquisition and

everything going right sometimes they'll

gloss over some of the rough you really

have to dig in to he that not everything

goes right so um I just I really

appreciate this conversation that we're

going to have um was there anything that

like we we'll get into the background

and everything like that but was there

anything about this that just made you

reach out and say absolutely I want to

have this conversation well I think it's

as you said Barrett so often um

entrepreneurship business owners ship is

um and I think in particular um post

pandemic has been painted as kind of

this um Panacea if you will to you know

the I hate my job I don't you I don't

want to like work with this organization

anymore so I think I need to go work for

myself and I mean it's you know it's a

lifestyle choice and I think what does

happen is a lot of times um as you just

said people only see the good bits of it

they don't realize that the success that

we experience as business owners or

entrepreneurs uh came with likely a lot

of scars and I think if somebody's

telling you that they don't have those

scars or they didn't have any you know

hard times or challenges um I'm going to

be bold enough to say they're lying and

I just and I think to Barrett there's a

certain amount of stigma and shame or

embarrassment that comes with I had this

dream I tried it and it didn't work and

I don't really want to talk about it um

but I think you know what there's an

opportunity here to take something that

didn't go as planned uh didn't go the

way that we foresaw it going but being

able to make take um create some good

from it which is to help others that may

be thinking about going down that path

um to just extract some learning from

that so that was really my sort of

Desire was like yeah you know we we

don't tend to tell these stories but why

wouldn't we because there's something

good that could come out of sharing

that yeah and if you if somebody doesn't

have those stories then the reality is

they probably haven't been in business

for very long because give it you know

give it8 to 10 years there's going to be

an economic downturn there's going to be

a point when sales aren't easy when

payroll needs to be cut these are kind

of some of the things that we face as a

business owner and so you're right there

is shame involved with it there

shouldn't be because these are some of

the decisions we make every single day

um when we're responsible for somebody

else when we're responsible for building

something and I think that yeah as we

talk about this as we not normalize it

but prepare people for it then they

won't be as surprised uh when it happens

to them so um yeah I'm really excited

about this uh So Lisa go ahead and give

us some context uh 2016 you and your

husband bought a tour agency what what

was behind that um so it how it all

started was I had just been chatting

with an acquaintance at the time and um

through a connection of hers uh she had

mentioned that this connection of hers

um worked with a lot of businesses that

were looking for ways to um uh find uh

buyers for um businesses that they had

right and this happened to be a

family-owned business they didn't have

the family did not have um family

members that wanted to continue the

business um and through conversations

that they had had about this particular

client it was like oh my gosh like uh

look at you know it's like kind of a

Hidden Gem look at how well they're

doing and it's been you know round for

40 years uh and then all of a sudden we

got kind of excited right because we

thought oh who doesn't want to travel

right um and at the time you know my

husband was a few years away from

retiring from his full-time work work

and we thought oh that'd be kind of like

a really fun gig right to be able to do

that and then he get into that kind of

um the the dreaming piece of it right

the that sort of uh the sort of like oh

wouldn't this be wonderful and so we um

we decided to have some conversations

and through those conversations uh

decided that we would Embark with two

other people as partners this

acquaintance of mine and her connection

so um there was three parties involved

in purchasing this business um it was a

family-owned business as I said that was

started by the father so it had passed

on to the sons um but as I said the Suns

did not have family members that were

interested in carrying it on um it had

been you know from uh the the the data

that we saw had been you know quite a

successful well-established business

that had started off um with a very

interesting Niche they did uh tours but

um the niche was it was started by um

the father was actually a Lutheran

minister so what he capitalized on was a

market that really didn't have a lot of

um suppliers for it which was people who

wanted to actually do tours of a

religious nature so that was kind of how

they started it was religious um

spiritual tours and then kind of

expanded from there and by the time we

were uh involved in it it had been

around for 40 years um so uh it you know

had a travel agency component but it

mostly focused on Group

Travel okay and so when you say that it

had passed on to the Suns the person who

founded it had passed away and this was

part of their estate now uh yes you're

correct Barrett so they had um so the

father had passed away um the mom was

still around but the mom was quite

elderly at this point um so they had

established it uh as a corporation um in

which they were shareholders so the mum

was still a significant shareholder in

the business but really was not involved

at the day-to-day running of the um of

the company so it was two out of the the

three sons that were running the

organization and they had actively

stepped into the operations of that

business for how long uh well the one

son Barrett had pretty much done that

for most of his um

career the other son actually had been

an accountant

um and had actually been in the uh where

I am uh the oil and gas industry is

quite prominent um so he had actually

been in the oil and gas industry for uh

quite a number of years and got um

convinced by the other brother to

actually join into the family business

so um I think the one son had been there

for a large part of his life like

probably I'm going to say like at least

a good um 25 to maybe even 30 years

whereas the other son had probably been

there for about 15 or so a little bit

more than that but again you know had a

previous career before stepping into the

family

business okay so it had been some time

since Dad passed to the point where they

were trying to sell this yes okay so

they tried to make it work and they

probably had been you know seen success

and things like that but something

around that time just brought them maybe

the third symbl wanted to get out or

both the third and the other one wanted

to get out or something there that

caused them to go to go to market with

this yeah so there the um so the third

sibling had actually passed away um at

some point as well Barrett so there was

only the two

sons um I think they kind of got tired

like you know they were at that stage um

where they were I think in their um late

50s early 60s um had just in and

particular the son that had been there

with the organiz ization really from

almost the time that the business had

started just sort of felt like he was

tired um didn't really want to do it

anymore right I think kind of lost the

spark and interest in it um and they

really didn't know how to go about

selling the

business um and I think you know one of

the things upon sort of um purchasing

the business and kind of discovering a

little bit more Barrett was that what

was also happening was yes they were um

you know still showing some positive

results on the books but to get those

results they were really struggling

because there was so much that had

changed um you know uh just in the

industry I mean with social media with

you know a lot more um online

competition right um all of those things

um and increasing prices um from their

suppliers all of those things were

starting to impact their business and so

I think they just thought yeah we're not

interested in continuing to work at this

anymore we'd like to just be able to

hand it off to somebody

else okay and at this point when they

decided to sell I mean what was the the

price based on just offloading it or was

like how did they value this business

yeah that's you know so it's that's a

great question Barrett that's actually

how they ended up going to the one

partner that we had was they actually

didn't know how to evaluate the company

um for anybody who is familiar with the

industry Barrett it's um you know

particularly if you have a fairly

wellestablished basee of clients I mean

you're writing a very high volume of um

sales um but at the end of the day um

you know your uh the actual Revenue that

you you know your net revenue um is so

dependent on a number of things um I

mean it's dependent on um currency

fluctuation

right and so how much you end up making

at the end of the day right it's also

dependent on how much your suppliers are

charging so the valuation at the end of

the day Barrett was based a bit on um

sort of what the the track record had

been of the company and what was sort of

anticipated to sort of be generated in

the future um so you know it was um it

was a number of factors like that but

again it's actually a difficult kind of

um business to evaluate um because

there's lots of things that are um

they're not consistent from year to year

right so some years are busier because

they were they would have certain um

because of their spiritual religious um

background there were some years that

were incredibly Banner years because

they were promoting a particular event

right which would really bump up their

um their sales and their revenue and

then some years it would be then depend

on other types of Tours to try and um

bring those numbers um into that same

sort of ballpark as the big gear so uh

at the end of the day um it was um you

know it ended up being I think a

combination of what did we you know see

as a um a past track record what did we

anticipate moving forward um and really

uh also some Goodwill right because they

had you know a very wellestablished

database so a lot of it um you know I

think that was actually big percentage

of it was who did they have already in

their database as clients okay I got you

Lisa so was there already I mean was

there a team that would come over with

this business

too uh so they ran fairly lean Barrett

um so yes there were full-time employees

so they had one um full-time

salesperson um they had uh you know

couple of um administrative staff right

so somebody who you know would um

they had at one point a receptionist and

they that lady retired so they had um

you know somebody who would process

payments for example right um the other

thing that was uh and they had um you

know a travel agent right like an actual

travel agent that was a train travel

agent um and then they had another sort

of part-time staffer person who um did

kind of a miscellaneous thing they did a

lot of things in house Barrett so for

example they would create their own

promotional brochures right um and they

would you know send those off for

printing and then they um they hired a

younger person who was sort of

communications and um media social media

um relations so so it ran pretty lean

and then the two brothers right so the

one would obviously do the accounting

side um the other one kind of worked in

concert with the

salesperson um but both of them at the

time that they were looking at um uh you

know uh passing on the business bar both

the brothers were less than full-time

like they actually started to kind of

pull back their hours from the

company okay so there was a sense that

the business would continue to work even

if you and your two partners didn't

bring any experience in this in this

industry to it yeah okay and what was

your experience with self-employment

with running a business up up to this

point so I actually grew up

um with my parents running their own

business so my parents actually um had

the um had were in the restaurant

industry um I he knew what work was yeah

exactly

absolutely I knew it from an early age

and decided that I wasn't sure that I

wanted to do that so funnily enough you

know I went to University and became a

pharmacist right so um but you know I

think somehow um I was kind of wired in

a way to be a uh like to be in Business

and Entrepreneurship because um I very

quickly got bored of being a hospital

pharmacist and went into the

pharmaceutical industry you know as a

sales rep and there you're running your

own territory and from there went into

coaching and Consulting so um at that

point I had had uh already um eight

years um on my own um as a as a

self-employed person but of course

having had a background as a um in

business as well so um I you know I had

a fair amount of business experience

prior to um prior to purchasing this

agency gotcha okay and then your

business partners was it a third a third

a third in the purchase of this business

yeah so we're so we're in Canada Barrett

so basically what we did was we as

partners uh Incorporated an organization

and under that organization under that

company we all then had our own

companies that were that kind of

represented us as the the partners and

yes it was a third a third a third okay

okay and uh did they either of them

bring any experience in this uh in this

industry to the table they did

not um yeah so we had one you know the

one partner was an accountant so you

know presumably he had the fin outs

experience the other person who was

really my the closer connection to to me

um did not have experience in this

particular industry but had um business

um experience in different ways she did

a lot of she was quite involved in the

real estate um industry did a lot of

deals with Land Development and bu um

you know Building Development and that

type of thing so yes different business

experience but nothing specific to the

travel industry gotcha okay

all right let's jump into year one then

um so you guys have decided you want to

buy this business you're buying out uh

two brothers who who have worked in it

for quite a bit of time so there there

was some success there couldn't all be

attributed to the dad prior to his

passing

so what did you guys find when you got

in there I mean did it start to go

downhill immediately

or talk a bit about that what you guys

found yeah so it was kind of a Slow Burn

it was like it wasn't obvious at first

right because um the way that the

business model worked was that you were

kind of pre you kind of did pre-sales so

obviously you were selling and if you if

anybody notices you'll notice like

cruise lines for example right they're

they're you know they're already

pre-selling right they're like right now

they're booking for 2025 or 26 right so

so basically in the beginning it was

really kind of hard to see what the

what the challenges were going to be

Barrett because there was already like

sales on the book right there's cash

there but correct it's it's a liability

yeah yeah so there was already like you

know tours that had been booked right

yes these things had been done so yes in

the beginning you start to see right

that start to roll in as we move into

those tours launching right um I think

you know the one thing that I started to

realize Barrett is one of the challenges

that comes with purchasing a

pre-existing business and particularly

one where there's long-standing

employees um is that you're sometimes

dealing with I see you smiling which is

you're sometimes dealing with that

they're first of all they might be a bit

shellshocked right that the the people

that own the business are leaving right

because some of them were really

attached right and we discovered that

there were relationships our salesperson

was um you know they were in-laws with

one the one of the brothers because

their children were married to one

another right so there's so there's

these loyalties right there's um there's

resistance to change right there's um

there's the um sort of concern that oh

these new people come in and they don't

know anything about the industry they

don't understand what we do right so so

what I would share as just even one of

the learnings um Barrett is um be a be

really mindful of that right because you

have no idea how these people are

thinking and feeling and they're the

people that are driving your running

your business right that you are relying

on um to run your business what what

kind of an overlap was there where the

conversation started then you get

introduced to the team and then you guys

acquire the business and then the

brothers stay on was there how much time

are we talking about here yeah there was

a little bit of there was a bit of

overlap of I would say probably a couple

of months Barrett but there were also

some there were also some challenges

that we and you know there's always the

Back stories that you don't know about

until you actually get into something so

there was an arrangement with the um

with the previous owners that they would

stay on for a period of time however

they they wanted to be compensated um

fairly um fairly heavily um in addition

to their acquisition price correct yes

that's correct they wanted to be you

know paid for their Consulting time um

and it became

apparent that there were

still I think some relationship dynamics

that were occurring that were not

terribly productive or healthy if I can

say that right because there was sort of

the okay um these people don't know what

they're doing and then there was I I

suspect some gossiping that was going on

from the people that you bought it from

so they're like kind of undercutting you

o yeah that's rough yeah right so I mean

it was you know it wasn't healthy right

and it's and that doesn't help you as

the new business owner with establishing

credibility Authority right um with your

staff right so so that I think yeah like

immediately I I shouldn't say

immediately but it started to become

apparent

that the way that they thought things

should

run it worked but it probably wasn't

going to serve the company moving

forward because it really wasn't in line

with the things that had changed and

advanced with technology um and other

ways of right um generating business so

I think that's where the friction came

Barrett and then

subsequently there was um that sort of

arrangement of the overlap kind of

terminated um shortly thereafter within

a few months time so it didn't go as

long as it should have but you had to

cut it off because it was not it was not

beneficial at this point yeah okay wow

were there any other types of employment

relationships you had to end or did

people just say they retired I'm

retiring yeah well what well that was

the other thing Barrett was that there

were several employees that were

longstanding employees that were um that

had

that could have easily retired right

they were in their um they were in their

late 60s one lady did make it clear that

she you know kind of only did this cuz

she wanted something to do and you know

was sort of like she didn't really know

it that well she took a bit of training

and you know was planning on retiring so

yes within was probably within about a

year or so one person did

retire um I think we also dealt with the

generational challenges um you know that

come with people of different age groups

the the younger person that we had I

think uh you know wanted um wanted a

certain type of work Arrangement that we

didn't feel was really going to work in

a a small office setting where people

needed to be able to communicate with

one another um and um subsequently that

person left right because it just it

wasn't it wasn't meeting our needs and

it wasn't meeting her needs um and um uh

and then yeah like I I think you know

the other thing that happened was um

shortly thereafter we started to see the

effects of what was happening because we

weren't we weren't getting enough sales

in um and then that's when we could

start to see the machine start to slow

down you see caught up with you yes and

then that's when um that's when slowly

people started to select themselves out

right um out of the

organization uh your team at the time or

did you have any partners that decided

they wanted to get out early uh the team

um but we also I think you know also as

well Barrett the the partners

also were sort of selective about how

much time they spent there right because

they also had other interests that they

were devoting themselves to um and so it

really wasn't probably getting the

attention that it needed from us either

were all of you part-time in the

business or were any of you there

working fulltime yeah so two of us two

of us were there more um more often

Barrett and then one person was there

not as much and then that was reflected

in our

salaries um but again I think part of

the challenge was Barrett that even when

we were there um really you know our

role was more just kind of to be there

as a support because we didn't we

weren't neither one of us were travel

agents right so we didn't know that part

of it we were really there to kind of

just um oversee things uh be there if

people had questions right troubleshoot

stuff um but you know I think there were

again like a number of challenges even

within the infrastructure of the company

um you know technology that was aging

out um that was actually it was um some

type of it was a Microsoft database that

actually was no longer supported by

Microsoft uh and was designed right by

one of the brothers um and unfortunately

right we were we were struggling because

it was outdated um we couldn't get

anybody we it was actually even hard to

find anybody who knew the database

because it was old um so most it people

didn't really deal with it or Know It

And then trying to bring in new

technology but it's a lot of work right

to try and migrate that to a new

platform yeah you couldn't even get

somebody in there to know it enough to

get it out of there into something yes

yeah I gotta love custom built software

Solutions yeah no

yourself so I mean we we'll get to Co in

a minute um but were there any bright

spots

uh during during the four years from

acquisition up until the

pandemic uh well um I mean in the

beginning it was you know it was it was

fun to think about different ways to

really sort of generate um more business

right um I mean it was certainly

interesting to learn a different

industry um uh you know I I did have the

chance to travel

got to Dubai that was fascinating right

went to the gpus um you know so that

part of the dream was at least getting

scratched a little bit

exactly

okay um like so talk about just the

creative scramble to try and write this

thing what were some of the what were

some of the things that you said were

bright spots

of we attempted this and it paid off we

attempted this and we were able to you

know see a little bit of a little bit of

immediate response from

that well I mean some of the things that

you know did work uh Barrett and I would

um you know say it's a good reminder is

as much as we have all this

technology the thing that still works is

those relationships that you build with

your clients right and the ones that are

face Toof face right so I mean we had

some very loyal um you know tour we call

the tour hosts right because that was

our business model we had tour hosts and

many of them were clergy not all but

many were um so you know my husband and

I hosted a couple of those because

towards the end when we had you know

skeleton staff um we were learning the

business right we were doing everything

right being the chief cook and bottle

washer so the bright spot I would say

you know Barrett is um you know we got

that opportunity to you know engage with

our customers right and sort of see what

it meant to them right and why they did

what they did right um the other thing

life changing trips and stuff like that

still hearing that feedback not knowing

how everything was collapsing behind the

scenes but you guys put on a a great

tour exactly but they really having they

were going to have this great time and

like you know some of them you know were

very creative right about the the tours

that they were doing right so um so I it

was kind of neat right to to learn about

you know these different countries do I

think you know there is something

interest there is something interesting

about um even though as the boss um

doing every role in the company and

learning every role right not having you

know like ultimately you don't want to

do everything but learning it all and I

think you know for me you know Barrett

it was you you were forced to be

resourceful right and I think you know

it really hit home to me that you know

what I had skills that I didn't realize

that I had right it's like oh when you

have to negotiate with your suppliers

when you have to like be you know when

you have to learn a lot more about

Finance and Accounting right um when you

have to really leverage those

relationships that you have with your

suppliers your clients right all of that

right um and honestly you know I would

say the one thing that came out of that

is to know that you know I can go

through a difficult a really difficult

hard life experience and still come out

the other side okay yeah yeah a friend

of mine uh he taught me about failure of

looking at it like a laboratory

experiment failure isn't final it just

means that experiment failed or needs to

be adjusted in order to get a positive

positive results from that experiment um

and it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt but

it does help you to help to see that as

a different context you're still a

professional you're still going to be

you know continue on with your career

and everything and so you're a better

person today as bad painful as a failure

is you're a better person today because

of what you what you go through

there so as long as you can keep moving

forward then you're going to you're

going to gain something from this in the

longterm rearview Mir

perspective yes absolutely right and I

think that's one of the the most

important things is that um you know not

to judge ourselves right because I think

you know what like it takes courage

right it takes courage and it takes

vulnerability to put yourself out there

and take Rous and to dream right and I

and I have a belief that you know

businesses are founded on some dream of

something that somebody wanted to do

some impact that they wanted to have in

the world uh and that's why I love

business like I'll never stop being in

business as much as you know I have

scars and have been you know beaten up

from it um because there is something

really wonderful about somebody had an

idea about something and they wanted to

bring it to the world and they wanted to

have an impact um and I I think to you

know what you've said Barrett is that I

think having been through those

experiences um the one thing it does

allow for is it it means that we are um

we're a little bit more compassionate

and kind right when we see people

struggling right because it's like I've

been there right and it's okay you'll

you'll make get through right uh and if

you need a helping hand and I had lots

of you know I will also say that I had

some really wonderful friends and

professionals that you know helped us

through that situation um that really

extended um that you know um compassion

to us and understanding and that was

like so

valuable all right let's get to the

events leading up to its eventual

closure um had that decision already

been in the back of your guys' head

prior to the pandemic or I mean or was

there still a desire to fight uh through

this and we can turn this

around well you know it's interesting

Barrett because that that's the one

piece I really wanted to speak about is

um when you go you know like as I was

going through all of this I would go

online and I would Google stuff right

and say oh you know what kind of what

information is there on this and it you

know what I learned is some of the most

common traps that we fall into is oh I

can save this right the ship is sinking

the Titanic is sinking but somehow I

think I can plug up the holes and save

it right which is such a common thing

that um many entrepreneurs will go

through right it's like we're doing the

slide but we're going to try and save it

right and I think you know right up it

wasn't until right up to the point

Barrett where um we had to move to

another location because you know we

couldn't afford a rant right we had

already like told our landlord I'm sorry

right we were in another location we

were down to like just one person at

this point just one salesperson and

myself and my husband kind of on the

side

helping and finally the announcement

comes where they're saying all the

borders are closed that we finally went

okay like yeah we got to pull the pin on

this right but

yeah I I'm a very like determined

fighter competitive person which is

which can all be good but not so good

when you can't see what's in front of

you which is like yeah this is not going

to right it this is we're too far in

yeah yeah how do you coach your clients

when you when you're talking about that

distinguishing behind you're on the

Titanic and going down and you're not

going to be able to pull this out

because so many of us do think like if I

get knocked down nine times it's the

10th time that I get up that's going to

be the breakthroughs there I mean there

is that war and the motivational or the

the mindset game for entrepreneurs of

you just need to persist keep on

persisting and how do you talk your

clients now through

distinguishing that what are some

indicators maybe well you know I think

the one that if I look back at my own

experience Barrett um is that I somehow

knew intuitively it wasn't going well

right but it's I think it's that battle

between the head and your gut or

wherever that sort of wisdom and and

intuition

lies um and I think you know what one of

the things that um becomes

important is to from the very onset um

to really have a a strong team of

professionals that's outside of your

business does that support your business

right so in other words do you have a

really good corporate lawyer right do

you have a good accountant right um

maybe it also includes a financial

planner right and to your point maybe it

includes a coach right having those

really trusted

advisors that um you um that you trust

that you have that wellestablished

relationship with to sort of say okay I

need a different perspective on this

what's what's the other perspective of

what's going on where where people are

willing to tell you the hard truth it is

really hard Barrett when you're in the

the thick of things because you you're

just tunnel visioned right and and I

think as business people we're we're

wired to success right um and as you

said it's also about how do we cultivate

a relationship a healthy relationship

with failure right not one that's

shameful or embarrassing or negative but

it's just a like you said absolutely

right it's this was an experiment that

we had a hypothesis and the experiment

didn't bear you know didn't bear out in

terms of the results and so I think one

of the things that I would coach a

client on is to say um I want you to

just not think for a moment but I want

you to go inside and what what's the you

know what's your inner wisdom telling

you or what's your intuition telling you

right and listen to that voice or what's

the voice that's that's there that

you're that you're not listening to yeah

I I worked through a lot of that with my

own business failure I don't I haven't

talked about it on the podcast much but

uh in

2017 I closed my company and came and

worked with to with the goal of becoming

a partner with a mentor of mine but I

was back to an employee for three years

there and I was back to a shirt and tie

and a commute and time sheets and

everything on paper

said you're a fool you have the ideal

life you're working from home all your

clients are remote you've got enough

money but how did I feel about it I was

not engaged I didn't like what I was

doing I didn't see myself as like

wanting to do this for another 30 35

years and so yeah I was like that head

was saying oh it's all great just keep

stick with it and the heart was like no

I'm dying

inside and I had business coaches that

talked to throughout that process I was

on a call with them monthly for about

two years in that just working through

if I'm not a Founder if I'm not an

entrepreneur if I'm an employee again

you know the joke I could never go back

and be an employee I'd be a terrible

employee and here I was and yeah having

to work through that

um for me it was a temporary stepping

stone and again I'm better because of it

but I knew in the future this was this

was out there um so yeah that mindset

work the coaching and everything like

that is very valuable and I can talk to

a business owner who can't make payroll

who's had to cut people who's had to

make some of the hard decisions that

you've had to make now as well um and I

think that yeah sorry rambling on this

is your your interview but how have your

relationships been with your two

partners how did you guys pull through

that especially the one that you were

close to going in

not great Barrett because we felt you

know without getting into a lot of

details we my husband and I felt

abandoned by them um you know one um one

started to you know said oh I've got

like other business things that are now

starting to tank right because I mean it

was right around that time right 17 18

right things were starting to tank right

I mean the economy wasn't great right so

um one just kind of pulled out and said

yeah sorry you know like I've got right

go I've got to go look after my own

stuff and then the other the other one

unfortunately we discovered were was

doing some things behind the scene that

were less than ethical right um so you

know

unfortunately um we still I still

maintain relationships with the one

person but the other person basically we

discovered had been involved in some

other activities that were as I said you

know less than ethical which is

unfortunate right um so so that was also

one of the the the the tensions that

existed right we were kind of left

holding the bag we were also the only

ones that had actually invested anything

into the company oh wow

okay so so by the time of covid they had

already checked out and they were just

like we're owners but were not involved

at all yeah and they had pretty much

said oh yeah well you know whatever

happens because you guys are handling it

you'll you know you'll get whatever

proceeds there are which at this point

is like well that would be like not a

lot right so um yeah I mean it was um at

that point we were kind of left holding

the bag and um yeah trying to do what we

could to to hold things together okay

did you did you find a buyer for what

was left or just shut the doors we just

shut the doors because at that point

Barrett we you know it was

um uh you know and of course you know

then the pandemic hit right so then it

was like anything we had on the books

had to be cancelled because did you have

to

refund um well we for some yes because

it depended on the nature of the tour so

like the cruise lines did right because

we had some that were cruises so yes

they were you know able to get a certain

amount back from the cruise lines um for

some of our clients um unfortunately we

were not able to because we had already

we had already had to commit funds to

our suppliers and we couldn't we weren't

going to get that money back right um

and we also had other outstanding debts

that were piling up so the cash flow was

an issue right so it was just like um

this whole CH domino effect right of

events that had happened so um

unfortunately right that's the other

difficult thing um when you have to

close a business depending on the nature

of the business um sometimes that's what

happens right and then you have to

reconcile feeling like an awful person

with this is just you know the

circumstances we find ourselves in

because of the nature of the

situation um so yeah I mean it was uh

there was a lot there was a lot of

experiences um that we had to go through

even shutting it down and it it wasn't a

bankruptcy right but it was

defaulting yes okay yeah that that

doesn't people don't know that happens

often enough it's like we have other

assets we're not bankrupt we're not you

know the court isn't going to write this

off but we have to go to suppliers and

say we can't there's there's nothing in

the business and we're shut in our doors

so how were you and your husband if we

can get very personal how are you and

your husband uh communicating and

working through all this did that what

kind of strain did that

bring um well I mean it wasn't it was

not it it definitely was not easy um and

it's challenging when um we have

different experiences and different

mindsets right and different

um things that um we value right right

so um my husband you know had been an

employee for his entire career right I

had already set myself on the path to be

a business owner and entrepreneur um and

so our risk tolerances were different um

and so it you know it I had a we got a

really good piece of advice from friends

of ours uh who had been through a very

similar situation Barrett um the the

husband uh had been a lawyer but very

entrepreneurial

um and the wife was a colleague of mine

who was a coach as well um they also

went through a very very difficult um uh

bankruptcy um with their business um

they ended up they became quite

successful with their business and then

they ended up actually creating a board

but what happened was when they created

this board the board wanted to go a

certain direction with the business that

they didn't want to go so the two of

them got fired

that's a whole another podcast yeah it

is so we were very um we were very

fortunate to have them help us right in

terms of just sitting with us supporting

us and one of the things that I will

never forget as a piece of advice

Barrett is that they said no matter what

happens have each other's back right

like this is going to be a really like

you know they were so supportive and

empathetic itic and they said it is

going to be hard right it's going to be

really hard but they said whatever you

do have each other's back right make

sure that you support one another you

know however you need to right you can't

lose that support for one another um and

so that that was a big I remembered that

like I still remember them saying that

as sitting in their living room and them

saying that to us and you know I really

we really strive to do that right

because it's not easy

but you really have to keep those lines

of communication open um and not to and

it's hard not to jump to that place of

Defending or judging but um to just keep

keep talking and keep communicating and

asking for what you need and here's how

I'm feeling right um so I mean we did a

lot of you know we ended up doing a lot

of things together I took the lead on a

lot of it but you know I I know that he

was always there to support

yeah I mean it's critical uh because

that stuff can snowball and being in

small

business that you can't you can't leave

it at the office it follows you home and

you are a whole person engaged wholly in

a business and engaged wholly in your

family and and other

Pursuits but yeah that that's one of the

ways a an experiment failure could

really roll you know just create this

whole cascad in effect if you're not

going to hold on to the things that

really matter through that um so that

that is great advice yeah

so where how do you pick how did you

pick yourself up from this and move

forward how did you learn to love again

how did you learn

to to say I'm gonna start something

else well fortunately Barrett I had uh

throughout the whole thing still Main my

coaching business um it hadn't been at

the same volume that it had been at

before obviously um but you know it

fortunately uh you know I I still had

that and interestingly enough um through

the pandemic and post pandemic um my

volume of work actually picked up um now

I did also um this is another thing that

I would offer as a as a piece of advice

is that um don't stop investing in

yourself because one of the hardest

things to do at the time Barett was I

thought okay um how am I going to get

more business like you know um and I

happened upon a program that a mentor of

mine was running it was a free webinar

right because what did we do during the

pandemic

is right it's like oh look another

webinar so um I happen to go on this

webinar with my mentor one of my old

mentors who' been one of my leaders when

I was changing my coach

training and he said I've got this

program and you know like I got a

three-day thing you know it's like um I

don't know like two it was like very

inexpensive $19 or something I was like

okay well I could do that so went

through the three days and I was like

okay like his program is exactly what I

need um and it felt like a lot of money

at the time right because we were really

just conscious of like how we going to

you know manage all of our finances and

I talked to my husband I said I'd really

like to do this because I feel like if I

could invest in this I can at least you

know bring my business back up and help

to you know um contribute to building

our finances again and and he said you

know that was he supported that because

I said you know I I think I you know we

can do it we we do have I still have you

know some some money tucked away that I

can do that so

um that's what I ended up doing that was

three years ago um and you know I

brought myself back up to you know um uh

last year back to a six figure um uh

figure right um awesome and I continue

to grow from there Barrett but I would

say that you know the thing was um I did

a lot of I spent a lot of time just

reflecting um and I did uh I did seek

help um and I think that's really

important I love that you said you've

had business coaches you've worked with

I went to my psychologist right because

it's like

um you can't we can't uh deny the fact

that that can really have such a um

tremendous impact on our mental

well-being right and you know and I also

had a lot of other stuff going on my dad

um had a a major stroke in 2017 and

ended up being in ICU and in long-term

care after that right and so Not only

was I dealing with a business that was

like tanking I was dealing with you know

of my dad by and needing him needing

support so I think one of the things

that I would do um Barrett is I always

prioritized my own mental health uh and

that meant you know usually a walk in

the morning um or at some point during

the day like some physical activity um

reaching out to uh reaching out and

getting support from my friends and my

community um and as I said you know I

feel very fortunate that we had um

incredibly good professional support

from a good corporate lawyer from an

accountant um from friends who had been

through the experience themselves um so

all of that and family all of that

really helped because I think you know

what it's these are opportunities when

we go through very difficult times to

build resilience right and and that

means a number of different things but

honestly those were some of the biggest

things that helped me through there um

gratitude right just um reminding me you

know every day even it was a little

thing like you know like hey I I'm

grateful like we still have a home to

live in right we still have you know we

still have food on the table so it's

like it's okay we're going to get

through

it yeah I mean I said a minute ago we're

whole people in everything that we do

and that can also be a benefit because

it means if you can find something

outside of this world that's crumbling

that's giving you a little bit of

success or just sustaining you giving

you rest you know focusing on Mental

Health focusing on family um for me you

know I am uh a Christian and so like

identity and then also like who am I if

I'm not an entrepreneur well I'm still

you know I said I'm still a Son of God

I'm still a father I'm still a husband

and I've got these other things and then

like pouring myself into like physical

exertion and just working out my

frustration through the gym and stuff

like that it can also Kickstart that

desire to get back out there um and so

yeah that's that's that's great um yeah

I guess looking back on it because it

does take some time to heal from that

how long did it take you to be able to

look back on this and say or maybe

you're not there but I am a better

person because I went I went through

this well you know I think that

um I would say that when I started to

finally feel like we could turn the

corner was when we finally got rid of

our last major piece of debt because the

other thing that was associated with

this whole situation was guarantees

right so that which is which could be

I'm sure a whole another podcast that we

could talk about right when you get into

these things right so I think you know

we finally got rid of that last piece of

debt which I think happened in

2022 um it was like okay finally right

the shackles are off right um and so you

know that you know it was a long period

of time but you know finally just uh

negotiating that getting it done was I

think for me when I could feel like okay

I can finally sort of move forward from

this point and you know there's still

some residuals that we need to deal with

but um you know they're not major um and

so yeah I would say that you know it was

a several year period um that that took

to kind of finally get to the stage

where I could look at it without sort of

like going I feel like sick to my

stomach it's like okay this is okay I

can handle it

okay um I really appreciate this

interview Lisa I would love to do

another one of these so we could talk

about so many other other things we've

only just casually uh touched on but is

uh before we jump into just the

lightning round that I like to do with

my guests is there anything else that

you would want to add to kind of wrap

wrap this discussion up

today the I think the thing you know

that I've discovered Barrett that I

would you know share with

um your listeners is that um not only is

it a you know we we sort of tend to

categorize like you said right I'm an

employee or I'm like a founder or a

business owner so we tend to kind of put

that label on it as like oh what type

you know what category of worker are you

right but what I would say is making

that choice to be a business owner

entrepreneur is actually a lifestyle

Choice it's like you said it is a whole

person thing right so that means and it

also means that when we become a

business owner entrepreneur it doesn't

mean that we don't have somebody to

answer to that we're Our Own Boss

because if we are honest it's like well

now my boss could be multiple if I'm a

consultant now I've got thousands of

bosses and any given day one of them

could wake up angry at me exactly right

because now my boss is all the clients

that I serve right or the organizations

that I consult too right so it's like do

not be fooled in thinking that you no

longer have a quote unquote boss it's

like oh it's just different but it is

very much a lifestyle choice and one

where you say am I prepared to take this

on right because it will come with its

own set of unique challenges and nuances

that are different from being employed

MH uh so I do end my shows with a

lightning round um some of these

questions are goofy just to kind of get

to know my guests a little bit but uh it

is also an opportunity for a guest to

reflect on some questions um and maybe

lead into another episode in the future

uh but are you ready for the lightning

round Lisa I am it feels like a is there

a prize at the if there's a lightning

round in getting of

[Music]

prize um yeah so the lightning round is

just a handful of questions one to two

sentences no no real detail given but

just off the top you know

uh yeah so all right uh coffee or tea

and how do you like it

prepared uh you know I generally tend to

be a tea person um and uh if I'm going

to have regular tea then I actually like

having evaporated milk in it okay all

right excellent uh pie or cake in any

specific

kind o

cake um and I going to say right now

like what's really really jumping out of

me it's like strawberry shortcake

excellent all

right um besides what we've already

talked about on here or maybe just to

reinforce it what is a common belief

among entrepreneurs that you would love

to

challenge well I think it's just the um

that it it's all just um Glamour and

Glitz and all of that when in fact you

know what's there's a lot of hard work

that goes into to where we see people

have accomplished success right where

where we look at those successful people

well how many years did it actually get

to you know did it require to get to

that place um and so it really is about

that as I said that commitment to being

willing to engage in a different type of

Lifestyle right because when I travel

now um I don't completely shut down I

make a choice of like am I still going

to do a little bit of work while I'm

there right because there's probably

very few places that I go without my

laptop okay uh what is your favorite

holiday and

why uh as in like a special holiday uh

or just a family tradition time of year

something like that uh you know I it

it's funny because growing up I don't

think I appreciate it as much but now

it's actually Chinese New Year okay um

because that's my background um and I

think because it is um it allows me to

really experience the connection to my

family and to my ancestry and what it

represents um uh and it's also kind of

in um now as it is as evolved over time

it's it's Al also connected to sprain so

it's kind of like it holds promise and

uh New Beginnings gotcha uh for any of

my listeners that aren't familiar is

there a specific tradition around

Chinese New Year that you really

love um you know for me it's um it's

actually just uh the fact that in my um

culture food is incredibly symbolic um

so it's all the kinds of um just

different kinds of food that we'll have

so um even though my family um doesn't

engage in a lot of that now it's it's

actually kind of fun my husband and I

still do that so we'll still have like

certain dishes or we'll um we'll go out

and have dinner or I'll make some of

those things at home or I'll go and buy

them okay

awesome um are you a morning person or a

night person and do you have a favorite

routine well I'm usually more of a night

person um but I've had to learn to adapt

to the morning um and one of the things

that helps me is if if at all possible

depending on my schedule I like to go

out um and just get a walk-in in the

morning it's usually when I sort of

clear my head um and sometimes I'll do

like like a a social media post while

I'm out um so that's sort of typically

what I like to do in the morning okay

awesome what is one thing that if

somewhere someone were to buy your

business from you or you Mentor somebody

in the profession what's one thing you'd

want a successor to remember you

for I would like um I would really like

to to think that um whoever it is that

you know I'm mentoring and I I do quite

a bit of that um is to know that you

know what um I I did what I did because

I was passionate about it and that it

made a difference for somebody um and I

remember that with a pH when I was a

pharmacist I had a pharmacy student um

who came and they do rotations and I saw

her actually a number of years later at

a conference and she was now she now

moved to an oncology um facility and she

was training students and she said you

know what she said I still remember the

day that I started with you and you

showed me how to read a chart she said I

do the same thing with my students and I

was like oh like like that just meant so

much to me right because I showed her

something and taught her something that

she was now passing on to her students

awesome uh where do you find where are

you finding creativity right

now um you know for me it's about um

uh nature so I um I find that just being

out in nature uh just even if I go for a

morning walk or usually um what I do is

I actually plan a retreat every month

where um my husband and I will just pick

somewhere relatively close by just kind

of hang out not do a lot um but I find

that that is where a lot of my

inspiration comes from um in those Quiet

Moments um where I'm just not really

thinking about anything in particular

and then something just kind of strikes

me okay awesome so not like a retreat

like an overnight but just we're going

to climb a mountain we're GNA spend a

day in the park we're going to go

boating or something like that just one

thing a month yeah do you do that during

the

week uh I usually do it I usually do it

on the weekends Barrett but I have found

that uh just this last little while with

just a lighter um schedule that just

those kinds of open slots of time are

also opportunities to kind of create all

those micro moments of um reflection and

creativity okay

awesome uh what do you have coming up

this year Lisa that's got you really

excited um well actually I am working on

a program um that I'm planning on

launching in the fall and it's actually

for emergent leaders so a lot of times

we talk about emerging leader or leaders

are established this is actually a

program that is um to help those

individuals that are um that have some

of those natural inclinations towards

leadership to actually start gaining

some of those foundational skills that

will help them to be noticed in their

organizations or even if they want that

for their own personal leadership um so

that's um that's going to be a program

that I'm doing that's going to be um

online and then also have um some

in-person components to it as well

that's awesome and that leads next into

my next question do you have a mailin

list set up for this program launch or

where can people find you online to be

ready when you launch this thing in a

couple months yeah um well I am uh I am

on social media so I am uh I hang out on

LinkedIn a lot um I'm also on Instagram

and Facebook uh my website is under

construction uh and yes I will be

creating um if people wanted um probably

one of the best things to do Barrett is

um I have a newsletter so people want to

subscribe to my newsletter that's where

where I put all my announcements and

stuff in there and then I will be once

that is ready to launch I'll start um

putting out uh I will create a a special

link for people to access that program

and get more information if they're

interested okay so they can just look

for Lisa dare on LinkedIn and your

newsletter would be one of the links in

your bio or um if they want to just yeah

if they want to just message me on um

LinkedIn or what I can do bar is I can

also um give you the link to subscribe

to my newsletter then that way they can

just click on that and then um they'll

just uh get um onto my mailing list for

the newsletter yeah awesome we'll

definitely put that in the description

so uh thank you Lisa this podcast has

been excellent um I really appreciate

your just your openness and you're

willing to share and talk to our

audience about some of these these

issues that get glossed over or missed

when we're all excited about all the

possibilities so thank you so much well

it's been a great talking to you Barrett

so thank you for the opportunity to uh

to chat