The Art of Succession

welcome to the art of succession podcast

with Barrett young join us as we explore

the strategies stories and insights that

shape the Journey of leadership

Transitions and business success no

matter where you find yourself along the

journey this is the podcast where you'll

find the tools to make it happen feel

like at that point you're married to a

job while at the same time have a ton of

other people dependent upon you and I

always take this call to just learn

information see who's thinking about

coming what they value what they don't

value like what culture is

at some point we're going to need to

sell so you might as well like establish

and build the relationships I was

stressed out but like I don't think I

really realized it until after I'd

actually like sold the business my name

is Barrett young and this is the art of

succession podcast my guest today is

Adam Shay who started a CPA firm in 2010

and then took an exit in

2023 and today he's going to tell us

what he's been doing since Adam thank

you for being a guest on the artistic

session thank you for having me on and

looking forward to it sure so uh to get

started what's I guess what's going

through your mind what's the impetus for

wanting to be a guest on the arst

succession and talk to other people that

might be in your position I think like

in a lot of what I've also been doing on

LinkedIn is just sharing lessons I

learned about business and both building

and growing the business but also the

exit process and then afterwards and

then kind of decompressing and realizing

you know how burn burnout I was um how

much I've been neglecting my health um

and just wanted to kind of share that

message and tell people there are you

know you're not if you feel stuck in

your business there's a couple ways to

you know get unstuck one of which is an

exit but uh you know that there are

opportunities out there you don't have

to hold your business until you're you

know 70 years old or you pass it on to

your kids or whatever sometimes you know

maybe a heads scratcher to people

externally as to why I sold my firm a

successful firm at 50 years old or so 49

um but you know it's just kind of

building the right move at the right

time awesome all right so let's get into

the firm uh you started it in 2010 did

you start it with anybody had you been

self-employed before did you start it up

from scratch going out on your own walk

me through that just a little bit

started from scratch on my own um three

weeks before my first son was born kind

of knew I needed to take the leap then

or I was going to be too um scared or

have too many obligations to do so also

like it was good from a timing and

family perspective because I

unfortunately wasn't super busy that

first year um and so I had time for my

son and my family and my wife like like

that first sort of spring where when he

was born like basically in January right

at the start of tax season and that's

was my initial Focus was was doing tax

work so okay and you'd been in public

accounting for a number of years at

other firms or did you come out of the

big four like had you been in a small

business before I I ended up so when I

got out of college I was a software

developer designer tester like business

analyst um and fintech space um decided

that really wasn't what I wanted to do

for the rest of my life and um relocated

took a buyout from my job relocated um

was trying to figure out what I was

going to do I thought I wanted to do

something business-wise running my own

business kind of had always been an

interest of mine um my mom suggested

that you know I just find a temporary

seasonal job doing taxes I was good at

math you know that stuff and I ended up

um managing

what was started as six Jackson hwi Tax

locations and we grew it to I think 13

or 14 um over a couple year period and

then it was kind of at that time I was

you

know really under selling myself and my

value and either it was like Buy in

there or go out on my own and kind of do

something on my own and I really decided

I wanted to take that bed on myself um

and also just not retail T I want to

focus more on planning and being

proactive in the business advisor than

just you know cranking out tax returns

to retail customers gotcha okay and I

presume you became a CPA while you were

there at Jackson huitt then to launch on

your own when I went on my own I did not

have my license so I had a new baby new

business and I was also studying for the

CPA exam so I did not

sleep all right awesome

and I I did you did you have any clients

come over from the previous was there a

non-compete there how how did that

launch go yeah I mean it was pretty much

from scratch maybe I don't know if a

customer two tracked me down but I

wasn't soliciting wasn't supposed to

solicit had a vague sort of

non-compete um and really the clientele

that a previously been working with

probably generally wasn't what I wanted

to be working with moving forward with

just complexity and just those looking

for advice versus just say an income tax

return that they need to file gotcha

okay awesome uh I mean we're we're

skipping over a lot of the founder piece

here but I assume a couple of years of

that how talk me through growth and how

you got that to a position 13 years

later where you had something of value

to sell yeah um so kind of took a couple

years to really get to the point point

where I felt I was ready to hire someone

hired you know an admin hired a

intern and then um eventually hired a

CPA and then just kind of continued to

hire and grow from there um did a lot of

you know grew through one back in 2010

no accounting firms in our area really

had websites so that was an easy way to

grow um you know Google go Google Maps

and stuff was pretty easy picking um and

so people would search starting to

search up yet the competition wasn't

there and then two just doing good work

and Word of Mouth from your clients and

three getting out and you know shaking

hands kissing babies doing all the

networking uh lots of time doing that

and just kind of getting to know people

and developing the name and reputation

and we're fortunate enough like our

Town's not tiny but it's also not huge

so kind of once you develop a good name

it just was pretty easy to you know get

referrals and just people know if

someone asks hey who do I know who do I

need to help me with my accounting and

tax stuff they say Adam sh um even if

they didn't know me because they knew

someone who knew me or had just heard

that we were good or whatever Goa okay

and and go and we at the peak I think

pre pandemic we were maybe close to 20

folks on our staff oh wow so somewhere

between 15 and 20 and then

um you know pandemic accountants like

were in even more shorts and Plies than

they were previously just because they

could work anywhere and get a big city

pay living here working here in

Wilmington NC people just were

reprioritizing things and so I mean

I I don't know you don't you never know

what would happened if I'd still be a

fir owner if the pandemic hadn't hit and

the world hadn't to change like it did

from an employment and priority persp

perspective but um it definitely you

know changed and had an impact on things

and um kind of made it more challenging

and where it really wasn't that I mean I

liked the business before liked what I

was doing VI business as a game and um

it just stopped being it's fun and

that's you know hard you feel like at

that point you're married to a job while

at the same time have a ton of other

people depending upon you um at the same

time and other people being the

employees that were working for us

gotcha pre pandemic had you guys were

you guys remote were you in office I

know being local there's a tendency to

take local business in office so mostly

in office but we did have like bpn

access and some remote access and people

could do stuff here and there we

actually like adjusted that

and 2018 our our area got hit really

badly by a hurricane and there's power

outage for week or two right around the

extension you know the September 15th

extension deadline and so it got me to

rethink like what contingency plans look

like so that we had all these people

that were had left town I think everyone

but me had left town but they couldn't

do anything because our server wasn't

accessible um you know because power was

out in our

office um over those th those 10 years

at least leading up to the pandemic how

much of it was how much of your work

that you were doing was annual

transactional um versus how much of it

was kind of recurring income yeah a lot

of it started out transactional and then

we kind of shifted like we

shifted probably around 2018 as well to

where we weren't going to do like if

someone if we were going to do an income

tax return for someone we were also

going to um do income tax projections

and planning with them so that gave us

at least two two touch points um or more

during the year depending on the

frequency of what they did there um so

we really kind of tried to shift a

little bit from the transaction side

transactional side of things but it took

us a while it probably wasn't

until 2020 or somewhere around there

like prior to that we were not doing any

you know your typical residual work or

ongoing work is accounting work on our

side we were not doing any of that we

were kind of strictly tax and forensic

accounting and tax resolution and didn't

really add accounting and bookkeeping

until much later in the life cycle of

the business okay uh between the

pandemic and between when you sold then

in those three years yeah probably

somewhere in that time frame maybe a

little bit before the pandemic but it

took us a little bit to just get going

because anytime you have a new line of

business you know you're making an

investment before kind of the revenue

gets there we probably initially and

I've did this multiple times and

hopefully people can learn from this I

always tell people like hire more senior

than you think you need and you can

afford um because it's just in the long

run it's cheaper than hiring someone

who's not senior enough that doesn't

work out or that doesn't carry as much

of the load as they showed from you the

business owner and stuff like that I I

mean that leads into my next question

was going to be going

into the the the years leading up to the

burnout

how much of the work came across your

desk how much of it was dependent on you

um out of 20 and I assume during the

pandemic you said some people took other

jobs so what's what size were you in

2023 when you when you sold the company

probably around 15 or so people okay so

about a quarter but not like half or

more you didn't shrink the firm

drastically so uh so how much of that

work was around you and falling on your

shoulders in those three to five years

leading up to the

acquisition not that much as far as

specifically like client work but like

and we had built out our model where we

had our our accountants we viewed them

as relationship managers and so we

weren't a model where our partner would

do all the communications to the clients

like our our staff would do that um but

at the end of the day it was still like

more complex stuff I I

think if I had to do ever again I would

have taught people how to fish better

and and problem solved better and you

know you kind of if you're not

intentional about it can build a culture

of like people coming to you when you

have when they have a problem and

instead of coming to you with a

potential solution or solutions to

consider they just kind of dump their

problem on your plate and then you're

you're carrying that burden and stress

so not really the traditional problem in

our profession of you had to sign every

tax return you had to review everyone

you had to do every client meeting but

there were other stresses there that

that were involved is that right that

and yeah and I was just spending a lot

of time like between you know just

turnover hire like really what kind of

burned me out most was probably just

dealing with HR and hiring and feeling

like I was always like that's all I was

ever doing and by the time I was like oh

this person's greater we're finally

smooth sailing for a bit and you know

the next day like some more people quit

yeah and and and the size business we

had we were like

big enough for a little bit of burden to

spread when someone left but really not

and we didn't have any like extra

capacity I mean again I if I had to do

over the growth kind of cycle again I I

probably would have invested a little

bit more and having that additional

capacity um you know earlier than I

needed it or more often than I needed it

um just to add a little bit of a buffer

and just kind of support future growth

um I want to get into the the burnout

and that decision here quickly but

before we do how much of the sales

process was still you did you have other

people bring business in or were you

still doing those initial calls and

onboarding and stuff like that um some

of the team was doing it um some of the

more senior team members but I was doing

a good bit of it um and like the bigger

deals I was kind of more involved in

just trying to you know the team team's

close rate was not going to be as

successful as my close rate not that I'm

a better salesperson or that I'm

naturally A salesperson but i' done it

more and then two I think there's

there's some Credence

to like someone trying to buy from you

if they know they're dealing with the

owner or someone a director some a

partner whatever it is then say just you

know some you know 25 30 year old

accountant that's that's trying to help

them yeah I've seen that and certainly

as owners Partners we we have the

ability to make concessions where

necessary and also to take a harder line

possibly than somebody as a sale in a

sales position would take so yeah I

understand that all right so talk to me

about the initial signs of burnout how

long did it take for you to recognize it

is burnout uh let's talk about this so I

don't think I really realize that I was

burned out or that everything I was

dealing with I mean I was stressed out

but like I don't think I really realized

it until after I'd actually like sold

the business and the adrenaline Road

wore off and I kind of dusted myself off

and and kind of did some

reflection and just you know that's

that's kind of when it really hit me the

most um my and so we didn't we haven't

talked about this but I did have

a small minority partner in the business

and she really wanted to get out too um

and she just was the one that headed up

our tax side and did not want to do tax

anymore and so part of it too was also

that I didn't want

to go through the process of rebuilding

an entire tax department or being in

charge of the tax department myself and

so trying to find a a good way a good

win for us to um you know at least

monetize somewhat everything that we had

built um you know over time and and kind

of allow her an out that provides some

income on that out and then you know I

looked at different options or different

choirs where some of which one or both

of us maybe would have stayed on if we'd

been bought by say a more traditional

big firm um whereas there are other

avenues where you know my partner stayed

for the first six months kind of as a

transition period with the buyer and

then I was to stay on for a year and I

stayed on longer than that um about two

and a half years or a year year and a

half I'm sorry a year and a half as an

employee and then still doing some

contract work with them at this point

gotcha okay um yeah so it was more the

minority Partners interest or desire to

get out how long had she been in the in

the business at this point and I assume

she earned her way into the into the

partnership yeah she had probably been

in by the time we sold seven or so years

I'd say roughly seven or eight so about

half the time yeah and

she had demonstrated herself but she had

also she had bought into her Equity with

the business so um she had some monetary

skin in the game and not just earned

equity in the game okay so yeah I mean

you bring up a good point burnout is

hard to recognize when you're in it it's

much more obvious that first tax season

when you're out and you're like wow I'm

not stressed right now it's just January

and yeah and I don't know if it's like

because I see it know it now or talk

about it myself but I feel

like in the last like year to especially

like on it might just be this sphere of

people I'm within on LinkedIn but a lot

of people talk about it or talking more

more focused on trying to have balance

as they you know build and grow a

business and stuff like that um so if

your partner wants out I I guess what's

going through your mind to start to say

yeah I could at 50 see myself you can't

retire completely so you've got to do

something else what's going through your

mind to say I I think I'm ready to pack

this one up and do something else versus

I'm gonna stay on find another partner

find a partial acquisition sell off the

tax practice something along those lines

yeah I mean I think it was just kind of

the for me like when I looked at do I

want to do this like you know say for

another 10 years and I'm not one of

those people that would want to work

till I'm 75 and die at the desk or

something like that in the business as

near and dear as it was to me was not my

life um you know but I I I just kind of

looked at it and you know is this really

what I want to do and like post pandemic

it was it was not and it was just like

kind of really just tired of hiring

people training people bringing people

on board and just kind of dealing with

you know impacts

of decisions people other people have

made meaning employees that have an

impact on me and

um and my stress levels and anything

else and and I'm not faulting them

everyone's got to do what they need to

do right for their life but it was just

not a good spot to be I didn't feel like

um and there were a couple

like and so maybe taking a step back we

would get acquisition calls because we

were in a growing Market we were growing

ourselves you know we were kind of the

firm to be in our area and so we would

get calls and I always like over

probably five years if not early ear

before we sold like I we always said I

always told my partner I'll always take

this call to just learn information see

who's thinking about coming what they

value what they don't value like what

culture is at some point we're going to

need to sell so you might as well like

establish and build the

relationships and so um you know I kind

of had those calls and then you know had

talks but not really and then I reached

out to a couple and said we might be

more serious about this um those were

more Regional ntion National or

Statewide firms consolidation more kind

yeah consolidation kind of things

um one or two of them I entertain like

you know we got to Loi and kind of did

some due diligence and other stuff or

actually three others we got at least

Loi one or two we got to some due

diligence but like you know I was

considering SE on there and my my buyout

portion being an equity interest for the

most part um in the The chiring

Firm okay and so you told me before the

call you ended up taking uh it was it

was a Searcher that was looking to get

out of a corporate job and buy a

existing practice and existing cash

flowing business so this was one of the

three that you entertained that had

contacted you before sorry before we get

into that that's interesting that you're

like I'm going to talk to them because I

I let those emails go to spam I just

like block you know Mar move it to

unfocused get rid of it because I I'm

not taking it seriously but your your

position was I at least want to be

educated by this okay and yeah time was

you know obviously a value commodity to

me but again I I just kind of as we

viewed the world um thought it was a

smart use of time if we did that you

know I don't know call it like once or

twice a year or once or twice a quarter

just depending on

it yeah different time okay remind

myself it's not today I feel like I'm

getting two or three of those a week

right now so okay all right that makes

sense um so talk to me about the the

negotiation with the Searcher then yeah

um and prior to that we had had a deal

that went to due diligence and they just

tried to

negotiate the renegotiate the price

during due diligence and just kind of

did

not I just did not one I wasn't happy

with the price they tried to renegotiate

it to but two I did not feel like I'd

want to stay on as an employee with like

just kind of people that are going to do

that um and so it just didn't feel like

the best fit and so that was right

before the start of one of our tax

seasons

and you know we kind of thought we're

GNA go through tax season maybe after

tax season the summer would do something

but buyer popped up through a

broker um right at the start of tax

season and so in the spring of 20123 I

was doing all this stuff behind the

scenes and due diligence um you

know with her with the buyer during tax

season when life is very busy but I just

kind of sucked it up and and did what I

needed to do to send it over the Finish

Line I think as an accounting firm we

probably I think it's safe to say or

assume we generally have probably better

records and financials and stuff

together than most people but it still

like blew my mind how like tedious and

um like timec consuming supporting DD

due diligence is um and it's not like it

was something I had my wife help me with

some of the stuff but it's not like I

didn't want to tell my team and didn't

tell our team until really far along in

a process and even then a lot of the

team didn't learn until we actually

announced that we'd been acquired um so

I didn't I just had to do most of the

ground workor um myself you know as far

as supporting providing financials

meeting with buer frequently um just

kind of answering questions helping push

along there so they use an SBA loan and

so there's there was just a lot of just

red tape related to that and just kind

of how the agreements had to be specific

to the SBA and just other stuff that

just was a lot

of it was it was stressful and even up

until like a week or two or at least the

last month before it was like there was

something in our lease that made the SBA

not happy and we were having to try to

get information from our landlord where

he's trying to use the the the Takeover

or the lease as a way to raate raise the

rent which was not going to work for the

buyer so everyone's like I kind of found

as a process everyone who found they had

any sort of Leverage from you that you

were going through an acquisition and

had any sort of Leverage trying to get

their their piece of it stuff that's

you're not prepared for going in yeah so

okay

um so did you how long did you and your

partner end up staying on did your

partner stay through another tax season

for the transition no she went she

stayed on from June of

2023 which is when we sold until

December of

2023 um so she did not stay on for

another tax season um she helped train

another tax manager and kind of helped

just generally document processes and do

some additional stuff I mean we we were

pretty good with documented processes

and Sops to begin with but you still

even like can always revisit and do some

cleanup on those if you're not going to

be around and just make sure they're

super

detailed yeah so I I presume this

Searcher was a CPA that was incorporate

uh because I don't know what the North

Carolina laws are but buying a CPA firm

is not an option for everyone is that

correct so she is not a CPA and we are

no we are an accounting firm now and not

a CPA firm and so that's the specific

disting distinction gotcha okay so your

partner staying on for you know through

the end of the year um that's a lot of

introductions and a lot of passing off

of relationships I assume yep correct

but I think it was like the fact that

the company was named Adam Shay CPA and

I was sticking around for that first

year and part of the reason a lot of the

reason I was sticking around is because

we had an earnout component to the

acquisition and so I wanted to stay

around and try to impact that as much as

I could gotcha okay and what's your role

in the company at this point since

you're not tax manager you're not

reviewing the tax returns what's your

role for that year here I was director

of vcfo and advisory Services um which

was a

new line of business and like I mean we

done some virtual CFO we' done a bunch

of advisory but like it was one of those

Services I wanted to add but like staff

really couldn't run with and and lead

and I couldn't do that at the same time

while I was while I was kind of running

and managing and growing the business um

and so thought

process with the choir going into it was

like I would direct you know be director

of that I would get back to more client

work you know help with transition stuff

like that maybe stay on indefinitely as

an employee hard to know until you get

in there um and also do continue to do

sales um you know be one of the

salesperson along with the new new owner

okay awesome so making sure she's up to

speed ready to take over but you also

just saw this as an opportunity to

experiment and grow I mean you said

accounting and bookkeeping really only

came in in the two years or so leading

up to this so you're now growing in a

department of a company you no longer

have a it's that's not going to affect

the value of that what was that like for

you yeah definitely freeing

you know some some in some ways free in

other ways you're like all right I'm you

know part of my compensation like I was

I guess I can say this I was

undercompensated for that first year

just because like I needed to be around

for the now gen 10 to be yeah um at

least that's my my take on it um and so

but the was pretty significant we HD

100% of the earnout um so that that was

important and so I I you sort of My

overall compensation during that time

some portion of the earnout as well so

let's talk to the mindset shift now

because like you said it's Adam Shay CPA

and Adam Shay is no longer gonna be

there

anymore what's going through your mind

as you're like I'm an employee again I'm

not a 100% owner here

and and then starting to look towards

the future like I said you're not able

to fully retire so there's got to be

something else what's going through your

mind here um yeah just that transition

from owner to employee versus you know

or seller yeah I mean I I you know

slowed down some didn't work as much

which was all good things but at the

same time like doing that then caused me

to do a lot of self-reflection and be

like is stuff with this company in the

space really what I want to be doing is

like or do I really realize kind of

reflecting on that that I enjoy more

teaching and Advising business owners

and in the weeds accounting and finance

and tax stuff um and so it just kind of

I don't know had to have I guess

more head space and and quiet time and

not to running around like a chicken

with my head cut off some of the time

like I was as a firm owner um to just

kind of really reflect and kind of

adjust to that but it it was you know

things I did not anticipate I probably

should have or I did anticipate but just

not as much it's like it's really tough

when your company is your baby and

someone comes in and changes a lot of

stuff that you know you maybe don't

agree should be

changed um or that and some of the stuff

was a better change change you know it

was a right thing but it still doesn't

mean that it it was easy for me to see

someone come in and do

that talk I mean just elaborate a little

bit on that I in my mind I lik in it to

we my wife and our first starter house

we lived there for 12 years and raised

our kids in there and then moved out but

it's still in the same town we live in

and so every time she drives by on the

way to Target she's like I can't believe

they've done this and I have to remind

her I'm like it's their house you

wouldn't want our owners our owners of

our current house to drive by and get

mad because of the things we're doing so

that's what in my mind I equate that to

but yeah just talk about did you ever

have conversations in that first year

like I don't think that's going to go

over well or you need to not do that or

how did you tell yourself to let go or

or move along and and I think your

analogy that you shared about your wife

in the first house is like kind of a

very accurate analogy as to how it's

sort

of how it is and how it should be viewed

um with the with the myself and the

business um I mean I I I had a

very you

know the owner and I would have one-on

ones weekly where we'd talk through

stuff issues um you know share my

opinion she'd ask my opinion

um and just but she she

was very driven to

Drive revenue and drive changes and and

drive

profitability um which are all good

things you know if you're the business

owner but also introducing too much

change at once can be tough for the

team um and so and there's you know

things along the lines of just

technology changes process changes um

things like that and nothing really like

structurally or organizationally

changing too much other than you know my

partner bowing out and um you know

myself not being the owner anymore or

the ultimate

boss I mean like change Technologic so

you were the like the firm to be in

Wilmington like this is the model for

the firm of the future kind of thing she

was she was even accelerating the gas on

some technological changes even beyond

that yep I think you have like

you know when you have someone

who's it's really a plus for her but you

know a lot of people grow up in an

accounting firm or like mature in an

accounting firm then they have this set

view in their world in their mind that

this is how they operate and she's

coming in with the clear slate and then

you know bunch of fresh ideas and so I'm

not saying that's a bad thing um it's

just you know accountants generally

don't adapt well to a ton of change it

once where our response is but you can't

do that and it's like why not and it's

like because we started doing that 12

years ago why I don't remember it was

what was available to us 12 years ago so

okay interesting um I I gotta ask this

and I know obviously non-competes and

all that kind of stuff but did the

thought ever flash through your head

that you wanted to start another

accounting firm early

on not not really and and like you said

um you know there's some non-competes in

play it's

more um area based than anything else

which isn't quite as relevant in today's

world um you know but I don't know I

never really wanted to build up a scaled

CPA firm again I mean I do do you know

some contract work with the buyer could

do contract work with others or oneoff

clients here and there um on the

advisory side of things but um nothing

really today and really I don't know

I've kind of

like I I I don't feel super passionate

about it being like Finance and

Accounting like what I want to spend my

day today doing um nor do I really have

any interest in building something up

where I have 15 or 20 employees again I

just want to kind of do the the solo gig

sort of thing um you know and it's it's

a very different mindset than I had the

first time which was to build something

of value to sell um I thought I'd grow

it much bigger than I would and I'd be

able to sell it at 50 to 55 at enough

valuation that I wouldn't have to work

again but you know just doesn't always

work out as you kind of think it

might so let's talk let's talk about

what's next how how soon after the

acquisition

did you see yourself starting making

moves to actually put something in place

rather than just an idea in the back of

your head how soon did you register the

LLC and start to talk about it and yeah

so I I had share the knowledge

previously I think since 2018 and had

been doing some um a URL that you just

keep renewing no I had to had a you I

didn't even have a website yet that's

okay um but uh and I probably would have

end up with the com instead of.co if I

had registered when I when I started

with it um but I I just did a lot of uh

I did some accounting firm specific

training some Technical Training um with

one kind of educational content course

creator um in the accounting space and

so I'd already kind of had the

experience but and really in that

Journey like he wanted me to do more

Technical Training and I really wanted

to do firm ownership and just

entrepreneurship training and so I knew

ultimately like long term that's I told

him after the acquisition like I didn't

the course needed to updated from a

technical perspective I just didn't have

the desire or skill set to do that at

that point um really the desire more

than anything um but I've had you know

experience like teaching you know 50 or

so sessions of like just educational

content to a group of business owners or

um of various sizes and really that's

kind of I don't know I guess this past

summer and I realize I'm jumping all

over the place but this past summer I

started posting on LinkedIn regularly

and it was kind of therapeutic and

teaching a lot about like here's what I

you know not I had this great exit I can

sit in you know drink my ties or

whatever forever um but like here here's

what I would have taught myself or

here's what I would have done

differently here's my lessons learned

and sort of has become

therapeutic um to share that and to

share just kind of more about

myself um and I'm really trying to to

then like take that knowledge that stuff

that I'm sharing out there and and

really develop some course and content

around that to help train groups of

business owners together um as well as

potentially some business coaching um

because I I do love entrepreneurship I

love working with business owners it's

just um more in the general business

operation side than maybe the accounting

and finance weeds yeah I gotcha so

what's that look like today I mean is it

are you on a platform or is it

one-on-one business coaching on a

subscription how how did that develop

yeah I mean I'm still developing that

now and kind of working on some ideas

and and content and so my plan is

here end of q1 start of Q2 is to have a

online meet four four times in a month

um where I run through content with a

group of people and then do some support

on the back end of that as well with um

entrepreneurs and business owners they

really want to you know either I kind of

have the idea of having those that are

in startup or early stage they have a

different set of issues you have those

that are in growth stage so having a

group of them together and then those

that want to go to exit or kind of more

mature stage um because as it you know

as you know very well Barrett like on

the endide of things like or the back

side of things when you're starting to

think about exit you got to do a lot of

things um you

know all around with your business to to

maximize that value and to make due

diligence as smooth as possible yeah

yeah for sure you you have to clean

everything up you have to make sure that

it's an good position to be replicated

not just fall apart as soon as you walk

out but I mean what I'm most interested

in you know you know we've you know

we've been Associated for a long time

through through a lot of this process

you know I closed my company and I know

the the exhaustion that you don't feel

until you're on the other side of it and

the the

self-identity shift that you have to go

through too and you know that's what

I've seen be come more out of you

through Linkedin over the past year is

that burnout side recognizing I was

burned out and I I would not have you

know it's a good thing this happened

when it did

so tell talk to me about some some signs

of burnout that don't look like burnout

if or you know just talk talk some more

about

that yeah I

mean I I

think unhealthy habits I had was just

eating late at night just food for

stress purposes

um drinking like not drinking like

getting hammered drinking but you know

drinking a couple drinks every day I

don't drink anymore I mean I don't judge

people that do but I just have kind of

made the decision to really not do that

um I think part of it everyone writes it

off as an entrepreneurial mind or that's

just being a business owner but was the

inability to sleep um you know just kind

of all those sorts of things um just

kind of were masking what was going on

really underneath or behind the

curtains or helping maybe not masking

but helping me cope with it and yeah

rationalizing and like you said it's

that's the that's being a business owner

right totally normal the hustle and

grind culture yeah yeah so now that you

look back and you see that I mean was

that there from day one or where did it

really start to accumulate for you other

than covid when it accumulated for

everybody but I mean can you see I mean

obviously with the new company you it

sounds like you don't want to have

employees you want to keep it yourself

but can you see

certain change points in that you would

have done differently to to remedy this

earlier or to resolve this earlier I

mean and I talked about it earlier like

in another little bit another reference

but like we had the opportunity to hire

a manager who I'm convinced would have

been a great manager for our team taking

stuff off my partner and myself but

let's say I don't remember the exact

figure but she was five or 10% over kind

of what our budget was and we didn't

budge on our budget couldn't bring her

on board probably brought three people

on board behind her that just never were

what we

wanted um and so again I go back to like

you

know some some decisions have to be

Financial some decisions have to be

growth Investments like there's a

balancing act there but if I had to do

ever again I would like with the

hindsight I have I would have hired more

senior more earlier um and really

probably grown

slower because when I I look at the

rapid growth we had it was tough on both

the systems so when you're at a a

company of five people and then you go

to 10 people what worked it

yeah in a different like you know within

a shorter period of time like you

know the systems break the people break

you don't have the right people in the

right seats all the time I mean we did

the right things we were supposed to do

or they say to do like develop a

leadership team have leadership team

meetings you know kind of starting to

implement some of the EOS stuff um even

though we didn't really you know

formally call everything rockers you

know the meetings and everything exactly

the same but were kind of doing the

issue identification and having

different people off own and resolve

them um but it was I think really kind

of once we get got over 10 people it

just kind of felt like there was always

just kind of people issues to deal with

some good some bad um you know we had

great people that so many great people

even before Co just decided that public

accounting wasn't for them and just kind

of frustrated of all that time you know

you spent investing in them how smooth

things were with them and then you got

to build someone up from scratch and so

I think that's kind of when I look back

at it personally just kind of

what know probably contribut the much

was just the stress because when you're

of that size when someone leaves there's

just so many moving Parts offboarding

them onboarding new people and then

picking up the additional CL working

making sure the clients are retained

deciding what you're going to

communicate to the clients like and

when um you know yeah I'm very familiar

with everything you're

sharing so um I mean moving forward from

here you've been through this you've

recovered through this you're now able

to share this with other people what

kind of guard rails do you have in place

now for you to look at or your wife to

point to or close friends and anything

like that to keep you from ending back

up here in another six years yeah and

and I'll get to that in a second let me

go back to the previous question though

too like one one other thing I think

that contributed was work from home and

not like you know and turning it off

yeah and not you're off like you don't

have to drive 20 minutes to get into

office and like it's always here it's

always as a business owner if if you're

looking for it there's always something

you can be doing um or should be doing

or maybe maybe not um so that was part

of it you know so I I think to your

question you just asked like trying to

set up those triggers of when I turn it

off like and you know like so walking my

dog the end of the day like then I'm

generally done for work um you know

making sure I get into exercise every

day every night as well like to just

kind of help me relieve stress and just

kind of I I've found things that

are more healthy um releases than what I

was doing previously

yeah yeah it's hard when you're a

business owner and there's some weight

on your shoulders that can't be shared

with other people it's hard

to prioritize anything else over that

and you're like no this is if I don't do

this nobody else will it's hard to say

well exercise

though is is important

walking the dog turning things off not

checking email all night long those

things those things matter and you have

to you have to have that line so and I

and I think other ways are helpful like

yes it can be helpful to talk through

your with your spouse about stuff but

like they

don't yeah and they don't own and run

the business I mean your spouse could

own and run another business but like I

think it's important like really what's

helped in my healing from burnout if you

want to call it that is like like seeing

other people talking about it chatting

with other people who are business

owners former business owners whatever

like ton of people have reached out to

me after like yeah I was dealing with

all these issues after I sold my

business as well here's how I you know

cope from it or here's how I recovered

or here's how long it took or just kind

of I didn't realize I was until after I

was you know everyone has their War

Stories unfortunately or most people do

yeah my first business I was 28 when I

started it it was from home and I didn't

have any of those boundaries and I I

learned after that my wife didn't

necessarily want to hear every single

thing that was on my mind because she

didn't have any power to be able to do

anything about it and so all I was doing

was getting it off of my plate and on to

hers and she's freaking out about things

and I'm like oh no I resolved that two

months ago I figured that out and moved

on so yeah healthy boundaries there and

just yeah knowing your relationships and

knowing what you can share and with whom

and then having plenty of options like I

have business owners I can talk to about

business things I have personal friends

I can talk to about some things but not

others so yeah that's

great um anything else that you want to

add or anything we haven't gone over

before we uh get to the lightning round

Adam um I mean no just talking about the

spouse there like the other interesting

thing is like when I had the business my

spouse worked in the business and that

can present its own sets of challenges

the other challenge was like she didn't

continue with the buyer um and she

wasn't super marketable for you know

just from a she was just kind of doing

admin like whatever I needed to be done

um and you know so it's just I I would

encourage someone after buying or

selling a business like to think about

like what it means for their spouse um

either way like even if they are are not

working in the business like just what

it means because you're going to change

your lives are going to change and like

you know just make sure you I don't know

think through and talk through that and

that they're okay with you being like in

their hair more whatever it may be um I

think I'd drive her I think I'd drive

her crazy if I wasn't working in some

capacity so I don't know if I'm GNA

continue working for the rest of my life

or what but okay so you're talking about

specifically it look like there was a

gap in the resume there yeah for for her

I mean she she's had she has a resume

but she her name's Sarah Shay and she

was working for Adam Shay CPA for you

know however many years as she was also

like czy you know as she was also Shing

the kids around and volunteering at

school and other stuff um and so I don't

know it's just kind of been trying to

figure out like what both of us are

going to do from a career and business

perspective you know moving forward okay

awesome well uh I look forward to

getting into the lightning round with

you Adam I love this part just to hear

more about my guest and find out some

things that are on their minds about

some of the questions so you ready for

the lightning round sure have had it

okay uh coffee or tea and how do you how

do you like it

prepared uh tea and iced tea with some

sort of fruit flavor in it okay uh I

assume sweet or is that a incorrect

assumption yeah I mean we are the South

so yeah it's got some sort of Sweetness

in it although like actually and I'll

add the one other te I like is Starbucks

they have things that are called

medicine balls which is hot tea with

honey in it and lemonade in it and those

are very good too like a cold killer

kind of thing yeah it's like a cold

killer but you you can I I drink it if I

go to

Starbucks okay yeah I just wanted to

clarify because I know I go south of

Virginia and I don't have to say sweet

tea I just say tea so it's better than

going back home to California and I said

do you have sweet tea and they're like

well you can add sugar packets to it I'm

like never mind just bring me a

soda all right uh pie or cake and do you

have a a favorite kind carrot cake

that's what my mom always made growing

up and so it just kind of has a special

spot in me it was what we got for our

birthdays and stuff like that I think it

was my dad's favorite so awesome yeah I

that brings back childhood memories for

me too still enjoy it today

um what's a common belief among

entrepreneurs that you would love to

correct I mean I I think it just kind of

goes around the hustle culture and the

like that you have to like your business

has to be your life or your life has to

be your business um and just kind of

finding balance even if you're growing

and really um having a successful

business like you just

need that time and focus and you need

outside interests outside of the work

outside of your family to help maintain

that that balance and so I think I'm at

least seen more and more where people

are like no hustle culture is not that

great like that's that's probably the

best thing that's come out of the postco

and pandemic era is like just people

seem to be more mindful of that and more

mindful of of you know balancing things

I think it's still taking a while to

catch up at the owner level of the

companies but I'm definitely happy to

see that at the at the employee and the

manager level of you know this company's

going to continue to exist after you

after you go I think stories like yours

are important for owners where it's like

yeah this company does rely on me but I

need to be somebody else other than just

the person in this company so

awesome uh if what's your favorite

holiday and

why um I would say Labor Day I I don't

know I'm a I'm a I'm a fall and winter

kind of guy even though you know it's

gets hot here in North Carolina in the

summertime and like I just like that and

so it may still be hot on Labor Day but

it's at least sign signifying that it's

coming the other thing is like this may

sound terrible to say but I think

parents can relate to this it's also

generally around the start of school and

so you know there's there's you have

more time to yourself the reset of wow

the house is so quiet

again all right awesome I think you

might be the first vote for labor day

I've had on the

podcast awesome um are you a morning

person or a night person and do you have

a favorite

routine um I would say generally like

morning person although like I I don't

know one of the things I've done like

post acquisition is like really try to

focus on my sleep and so I wake up when

I wake up and it's generally not that

super early but it's not late but sounds

super early um yeah I mean my routine

again starts with like my workday ends

with the walking the dog my day starts

with walking the dog and just kind of

getting outside um sometimes I listen to

podcast but a lot of times I convince

myself that just like H not having the

noise and just kind of being in

observing nature around us is a good

start to the day

awesome um what what's one thing that

you would want your successor to to

remember you for I think that being you

know honest and to my word and you know

just representing things as they were um

you know with the business and just kind

of being a standup guy is kind of what I

want someone to remember me yes okay

awesome uh where are you finding

creativity right now I mean I I share my

creativity or I don't know I find

creativity in daily life and so I I kind

of like a lot of times thoughts or ideas

come to me as far as like things I could

write about or could share on LinkedIn

or you know do for other things or

relevant to other business owners um I

generally will try to jot down those

thoughts because it's I'm one of those

people like if I don't jot it down like

i' I've lost the thought like five or 10

minutes later at least with that sort of

stuff um and so I don't know it's just

kind of living life with eyes open and

trying to cut down on some of the

digital and electronic distractions and

just kind of that's that's kind of what

sparked my Sparks my juice taking the

time to observe and just watch and pay

attention to why things are the way they

are yeah awesome

cool um last question Adam what do you

have coming up in the next year that's

got you really excited or interested

engaged yeah um I mean I I'm just kind

of kind of building out this new side of

me this new business for me and just

kind of developing that I mean people

are asking sort of what I'm doing I'm

I'm I know in the general area but I'm

still hashing through ideas and just

kind of want to work with business

owners entrepreneurs to help them

achieve their goals help them minimize

the mistakes I made and so you know in

the form of you know educational content

and um you know coaching is kind of what

I'm my thought processes right now and

you could check in with me in you know

November and it may be something yeah I

may have pivoted who knows but um that's

what I intend to do right now is kind of

my goal is for

2025 awesome and where can people uh

find you online to follow more along

with that uh best spot for me is

probably on LinkedIn if they just search

Adam Shay shy they'll find me pretty

easily and I'm I'm really active on

there yep we're going to link that in

the show notes awesome uh anything else

Adam at the end here don't don't don't

let the business you know if you're

running a business or thinking of

acquiring a business I just encourage

people to find ballots and maintain

ballots and not to let the stress of it

like push you too far because I was

fortunate like through un external

events or what my partner wanted to do

like I sold the business and I was

burned out didn't really realize it but

what I I kind of like think back like or

look back like what would have happened

if that hadn't happened and I continued

I mean you hear people ending up in a

hospital other stuff like just are just

kind of shattered lives because they

work too much or carry too much stress

and so um I think it's just kind of

that's my message I'm trying to get out

is to your your work is not your

identity and your identity is not your

work so or or your business

well thank you for Adam for being on the

show and sharing the message I

appreciate it thank you you've been

listening to the art of succession

podcast with your host Barrett young

twice a month we'll bring you interviews

sharing the successes and challenges

from business owners with their own

succession Stories the art of succession

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