The Art of Succession

and ultimately it was rather interesting

um because neither of us really cared we

were not necessarily rushing for me to

take it over for him to sell it both of

us were just almost too polite in

regards to well I want you to save taxes

well I don't want you to pay too much

well I want this and I want that and it

actually frankly hurt us more than

helped us and so now the question is

okay we've made it here let's pump the

breaks ever so slightly let's get back

to that Foundation those fundamentals

and make sure we're ready for that kind

of Next Step

whether that's acquisition multiple

Acquisitions where there's just natural

growth how do you strike the balance

between the professional and the family

relationships especially when your

employees are watching how do you set a

valuation on a business that you are

instrumental in building and how do you

transform a traditional service business

and position it to scale for the next

phase my name is Barrett young and this

is the artist succession podcast my

guest today is Mike Libby partner and

Chief Operating Officer of ybl an

accounting firm in Ontario Canada today

we're going to hear from Mike about

starting with his dad's accounting

company while working through college

then gaining experience in the workforce

before joining up with his dad's firm

and starting the transition of

leadership Mike welcome to the artist

sucession thanks for having me Barrett

appreciate that looking forward to it so

give me a little bit of context I know

you've you're working at ybl formerly

your bottom line um your dad started

this company so originally yeah he he

absolutely did he started it uh actually

20 years ago uh when we watching this uh

he he started it yeah 20 years ago in

May of 2024 that'll be officially 2020

or sorry 20 years and I joined on board

in 2010 uh so I've been with the team

for about 14 years and uh it's been

exciting I mean he had a couple few

opportunities that he was thinking about

creating ybl that just kind of fizzled

out and different other opportunities uh

but this was really the one that kind of

stuck and I'm glad it

did okay uh where was he in his career

when he started this so he had been uh

he worked for uh Tuan Ross as he calls

it back then uh he's a CPA uh and and so

now know as Deo uh so he worked there he

was controller he was CFO for a couple

other kind of larger

corporations um and then yeah roughly 20

years ago and in 2004 he determined that

he wanted to kind of start something up

his own and so he was doing it on at

night on weekends all that fun stuff as

he was a full-time controller I can't

remember the exact name of where he was

think it was Earth fresh in in Miss Saga

near Toronto um so it was a side gig and

a nighttime weekends a lot of people

started out doing kind of simple

personal tax returns corporate tax

returns and such um had a partner he had

a partner at that time originally um

okay and that kind of fizzled out as

well which which kind of worked out all

right um and he would say that too um

and so so it kind of just really grew

grew from there and so ultimately after

a few years he was able to make a

full-time kick and then uh and then yeah

I joined on Ward in 2010 as the first

employee officially oh okay so you it

was he was a sole proprietor then still

at that point he was he was absolutely

he had a couple other kind of minimal

subcontractors he he'd Ed from a

bookkeeping perspective or hey I'm I'm

overloaded from a a personal tax

perspective but I was really the first

one full-time that joined on board with

it um and it's it's it's rather

interesting he never we neither of us

actually planned on on this really

happening and transpiring but uh both

extremely fortunate and and and happy

that it did turn up this way okay and

for context how roughly how how big are

you guys now so 15 years later yeah as

of today we're a team of about 30

looking for some kind of Rapid expansion

as well some potential Acquisitions on

the radar too um but uh but yeah we're

hoping to be I would say a team of 50

ideally within the next year or two

years okay interesting so 2010 it's your

dad the other partner had already exited

at that point it's your dad and you came

in as the first

employee uh you were in high school at

the time so what had happened was uh

yeah so I um I was in high school and

then what it ended up happening was I

went to Niagara College uh and got my

business admit accounting diploma there

uh so that was about 3 years so I went

there 2007 and so what it ended up

happen happening was it moved back home

uh to Curtis at that time which about 40

minutes east of Toronto um and so after

college I was looking for a different

spot to work do I go to the big for do I

do this do I do that I been a whole

bunch of uh interviews at different

places and during that time and even

during High School in college I would

come home for some Reon I'd help them

just a little bit prepare a couple tax

returns nothing crazy nothing expected

to come out of it um and so I've been

preparing minimal person tax returns for

quite some time and what ended up

happening was of course I put that on my

resume understandably and so I'd go to

all of these interviews and they would

all say I see that you've you've worked

for your dad a little bit you got to

fill in these BLS for us why are you not

working for your dad's firm and I didn't

actually have an answer and so if you

looked at us in high school and even

Elementary School at that point there

was just no world we were ever working

together and it doesn't make sense with

hindsight now that of course I didn't go

to college or university for accounting

to try and work with my dad and it just

naturally kind of worked out that way in

fact I went to college for accounting

because I thought it was easy and and

boy what is I wrong and and so what

ended up happening was even during going

to college for those three years I

really had absolutely no intention of

working for him um and sure I knew he

had this kind of side gig where he had

this business and stuff but it really

didn't mean much to me at that time

still pretty young um and so so they'd

ask me that question and I really didn't

have a reason and so what ended up

happening was after one distinct

interview I remember I think it was

third round of interviews at this

company um I went home and I said I

don't have an answer and these people

keep asking me why I'm not working for

my dad and we just kind of discussed it

it was Friday afternoon we talked all

weekend about it and I started with him

Monday morning so uh it it was it's the

rest is history obviously but it it just

the way that it unfolded it's difficult

to comprehend even for me and him the

fact that this wasn't necessarily

planned because in his mind in my mind

as well I'd go out there I'd get some

experience see what was out there

determine kind of what made sense and

what worked for me um and even at that

time I really didn't have any thoughts

or foresights about hey you know what I

want to do that and I want to come back

and and work for him um so the way they

unfolded kind of naturally worked out

rather well and so we uh we hit the

ground running and and I mean it started

doing kind of things with him

bookkeeping uh paper pen all that fun

stuff old school QuickBooks desktop

which is no longer a thing for us

certainly anymore um then personal tax

prep then naturally corporate tax prep I

helped them with the systems and

operations kind of extensively cuz he

really didn't have much of a structure

to it um and that's kind of the

operations piece there I mean I love

technology personally professionally so

it really just kind of naturally helped

um and then so it was just me and him

for for quite some time

uh I'd say

about maybe six years uh with some other

kind of contractors out there we had a

couple people we'd hired and didn't

necessarily kind of work out then we had

one real good admin about kind of seven

years in and then we finally got out of

his living room and my parents living

room at that time because it was really

just set up this house uh moved into the

office when we had two official

employees and then the Fishbowl effect

just happened filled that out uh and

then we moved into the office beside us

expanded filled that out and then moved

once more to a larger office um the 15

minutes down the road and uh and now

interestingly enough we don't use much

of that space because we've gone kind of

primarily virtual so it's it's gone very

well so seven years in you hired ad been

that's seven years into you joining him

in 2010 correct yeah exactly yeah so we

had some other kind of people ad hoc and

stuff but we I was really doing the

bookkeeping the taxes the admin the

operations you name it kind of all of

the that time until they made out the I

gotcha okay so when you joined him there

was no real talk of like I mean there

was there wasn't really a business here

that needed a succession plan and that's

kind of what you had in the back of your

mind is I'm going to go out there and

work there besides you know maybe not

necessarily come home and work on Dad's

side business or Dad's little small

thing that he's got going on is that

what was running through your mind

pretty much I mean even still I got to

admit there was no grandmas plan for me

him if you ask him absolutely was a

Grandmaster plan play he's thrilled that

I join him in the way that this is all

transpired right but it's always that

fine balance I mean I've got two little

ones as much as I'd love for them to be

my succession plan at some point you

can't force it on them right it's got to

end up kind of unfolding naturally I'm

of that belief anyways you push it too

hard and and and it doesn't necessarily

work so I think it worked out

fantastically um I mean he asked my

little man he wants to be an astronaut

he's 5 years old there was one time he

said he wanted to be an accountant I'm

like careful what you wish for you you

hold on to that little glimmer of hope

he told me five years ago you wanted to

do this what happened he's 5 years old

so we've got time to uh to make that

happen but no I mean I'm sure it was

really a grandm plan for him and and

again we're both very thankful with with

how it unfolded but for me really

naively I was what 20 years old at that

time really didn't have the foresight to

be able to say hey I absolutely want to

try and take over this business do this

do that because in my mind I mean I've

unlocked so much more in the last kind

of few years as we've really kind of

grown and scaled um but it still was

even when I joined on board it was just

call it we were making a 100,000 maybe

$200,000 a year just doing personal

taxes corporate taxes very simple stuff

no real advisory and stuff like that so

it was difficult to see at that time

being young and and having such kind of

also say minimal Revenue um to think of

where we'd be today and and where we're

about to be so uh it all kind of

naturally unfolded which worked I got

that okay did did I read that you went

act you actually went into a different

area of account counting for a little

bit there before coming on board with

your dad so I yeah when I went to um

School in Niagara so in college in

Niagara uh I'd come back for the Summers

and I would work at the ministry of

fight ANS in oshaa um and so that

was how do I say rather simple and

straightforward they keep asking me back

it was easy I've never watched more TV

shows and and movies than than I did at

the Ministry of Finance because I would

beg and beg for more work right they

just give work here's this exceled work

or something like that and this is your

work for the week and I sang it out in

about an hour and and I'd say okay I'm

ready for more I'm ready for more like

they don't have anymore just don't do

anything just don't tell anybody I'm

like but this is boring I I want to do

something more so uh so that's what I

got uh got into Breaking Bad got into a

whole bunch of other shows and stuff

like that at that time but time not

necessarily well spent but you know what

it it allowed me the time to be able to

kind of focus on some other things uh

personally professionally which which

kind of worked out well but so we worked

at the Ministry of Finance for three

Summers they kept asking for me back

shockingly uh and then after I was done

college and before I went into

University that's when I kind of really

linked up with uh with Ross as I call

him from a professional setting but uh

but my dad and and then it went back to

University as well and stuff so gotcha

okay so that was more like a summer

internship kind of gotcha y absolutely

but it was enough for you to know that

was not the future completely nothing

against government workers at all but

yeah i' never had so much downtime in my

life and and rarely in in in my life now

I think I see downtime personally or

professionally for that matter you drive

you crazy yeah I wouldn't even know what

to do with

it so okay but so I did hear you did go

to school for

accountancy but you go to your website

and I talked to you just a little bit

before recording you're not a CPA or a

CA in Canada right now correct that is

absolutely correct so the way that it

kind of unfolded um um so I went three

years for business admit accounting I

went back to school after about 5 Years

with Ross um for my BBA that was online

university that I did um before I had

kids um and so then I determined you you

know what do I want to roll this into my

CPA what do I want to do and so

ultimately I was weighing the pros and

cons and I sometimes still do um about

is it NE necessary do I need it what is

it potentially going to unlock for me

and is it worth the time Insanity effort

cost Etc and so I realized quite quickly

that I didn't necessarily want to turn

this firm into what someone considered

to be the traditional model from a

partner perspective where I've got my

Chun of clients at work you've got yours

got yours and I'm doing the top level

reviews that was never something that

interested me and while I do have the

technical experience from bookkeeping to

personal taxes corporate taxes sales tax

payroll Etc jack of all trades master of

none um it it just didn't excite me to

think of it in that way and so that had

really kind of moved us to change the Y

structure uh a little bit more in

regards to kind of CEO coo those types

of uh kind of or structure situations

where now we've got final reviewers

under us um and so it's just not really

been necessary for anything that we do

currently I mean we don't do audits or

anything like that that would require it

um the most we do is really compilation

engagements and so it just had not

really mattered to me quite frankly the

way that we've really kind of structured

this so from a a financial and Optics

perspective uh really didn't seem worth

it um I'd rather spend my time working

on the business or or in the business at

at whatever stage than spending that

time I get my CPA to really not benefit

me and the reality is depending on how

you position yourself and I know with

our from specifically one out of every

400 clients asked if we are a CPA have a

CPA and the answer is absolutely we have

CPAs on staff I'm just not one and

that's not a big deal because I'm not

the one reviewing your tax return

anyways so hadn't really matter gotcha

okay but at this point in the timeline

just trying to get this clear Y at this

point when you decided not to go towards

that or finish your BBA it was still you

and your dad and subcontractors so it

was kind of like

aspirational we're going to have CPA

employees in the future that are going

to be able to do this stuff but so you

made you made that decision then and

decided to implement it so admittedly

after so I went 3 years of college I

think a three-year Gap and then three

years of online university and then at

that time you're right that really kind

of lines up with when we hired our first

employee but six years which have been

right when I was done cting University I

was huming and haing at that point so I

was do I get my CPA do I not

and then work got so busy that it really

kind of fell off my radar um so it's not

like after University was done I made

the determination or the decision that I

didn't want to get my CPA um it was

really more so I'm so busy I can't even

entertain this for the next five six

years and here we are 11 years after

that where yes life life kind of makes

that decision for you a little bit sure

could I get it now sure would any of my

credits transfer maybe probably not I'm

not even find out this that's just not

the way I want to run the business right

I gotcha yeah okay so at the time but

Dad was doing all the necessary work

that you know it was still his name in

the brand that was selling that

absolutely AB just like I'm going to

focus on systems or marketing or

operations or whatever it was you

exactly whether it's bookkeeping tax

prep corporate tax prep he was always

the one kind of doing the final reviews

on that from a CPA standpoint CPA level

um so yeah it it didn't seem vital at

that time um

and so yeah no it it it worked out all

right so in Maryland we have a

requirement that it needs to be majority

owned by CPAs in order to be a CPA firm

other states there can't be any non-cpa

ownership at all or did you guys just

decide we're not going to be registered

as a CPA firm is that you guys are

accounting company yeah yeah so uh we do

actually have behind the scenes kind of

two corporations in a different unique

structure which we've kind of run by

cpao and we have some other kind of

firms and acem firm owners that we speak

to about the situation so we do actually

break it up a little bit because you're

absolutely right in Ontario specifically

you do need a CPA owned professional

Corporation in order to employ CPAs um

majority or entirely uh I believe it's

entirely so with professional

Corporation it can only be kind of 100%

shareholder by that person who is

licensed so we have a I'll call it

unique whether it's terribly unique or

not I'll leave that to to the audience

but um we yeah we've got a true

corporate kind of set up where any work

like compilation engagements or anything

in regards to kind of CPA whoever might

be employed whether it's a student or a

kind of official certified CPA uh that

will all just be under the SE

Corporation I gotcha okay um when you

came on with your dad in 2010 did you

come in as a partner or did you come in

as an employee like talk to me about

that transition of the ownership of the

company then these two companies

absolutely so um it's actually pretty

it's pretty recent so going back all the

way I just started as a simple

subcontractor I wasn't even an official

employee granted I was a full-time

subcontractor that didn't last very long

moved over to official employment um

where where I was getting taxes cppi and

all that fun stuff taking up my paycheck

within the year um that was a standard

kind of 9 to5 lived in the basement went

upstairs to the living room to get to

work there um so then I was it was yeah

it was the first full-time employee from

that perspective grew by Leaps and

Bounds everything at that point is just

a soul ership I

believe he

Incorporated maybe

2012 um and so moved some soul

proprietorship over to the

incorporation just so we've actually

been working on the succession plan for

I would say the last three years um and

ultimately it was rather interesting um

because neither of us really cared we

were not necessarily rushing for me to

take it over for him to sell it both of

us were just almost too polite in

regards to well I want you to save taxes

well I don't want you to pay too much

well I want this and I want that and it

actually frankly hurt us more than

helped us because we'd speak to some

serious serious highlevel tax

Specialists um whether it's Insurance

whether it's partnership agreements

these kinds of things and we would get

more questions than we would answers

wherein okay what you guys really want

really whatever's the most kind of tax

efficient and so for better or worse

the rules were changing um quite

considerably January 1st 2024 so the

fuel to the fire really happened I would

say mid 2023 and so once we realized

those rules were kind of official and

set in stone and that Ross would

potentially be paying hundreds of

thousands of dollars more in taxes with

this transition again both of us not

necessarily Russian um we made the

determination that you know what let's

kind of bat this down let's get

everything straightened out for December

31st 2023 so we did a lot of kind of

estate freezes uh we purified the

corporation did everything we needed to

from an investment perspective to

qualify for What's called the lcg in

Canada uh whereas you can effectively to

oversimplify it sell your business for

up to let's say a million dollars

completely tax-free if it's a qualifying

Corporation and so that's what I mean

when I say purify it is to make sure

that this was able to be a corporation

that could be sold to me from Ross um

for considerable tax sat qualified for

that lcg and so behind the scenes to get

into the nitty-gritty my mom Susan uh

she owned 49% of it Ross own 51% of it

for tax planning reasons so they were

able to account for two times the lcg so

they were able to sell it that first 2

million completely taxfree uh and so

above and beyond that he had to pay

taxes on that or will have to pay taxes

on that but we made the decision to

basically you know what let's get this

done before these rules Come into place

and he's going to have to pay

considerably more tax it's called the

AMT alterntive alternate minimum tax so

they really I don't want to say fourstar

hands but they were like I would do it

now and we're like okay sounds good

we've been waiting for somebody to kind

of force our hands a little bit in

making that determination and overpaying

in taxes is one reason to kind of push

that right it was inevitable ultimately

so it's like okay let's do it let's make

it happen and so to be very clear he's

absolutely still very much in the

business um he's still working on the

business time um while he's handed over

the Reigns in regards to the behind the

scenes from a actual ownership

perspective as well as uh and I would

say this to him as well anything I say I

would certainly say to his face but I've

been making all of the decisions for the

business I would say for the P part of

six to seven years now um and so he just

he trusts me right we've steered it in

the right direction for the last however

many years and I mean we often say we

pick our battles and the battles are

very very few and far in between uh and

we're very fortunate for that because

you can't necessarily say that that's

going to be the case for for anybody and

everybody that's working with a family

right so we

dope okay that's interesting to hear so

you had no ownership and then you went

to 100 owners 100% ownership that one

execution last absolutely a lot of work

that went into behind the scenes but

officially yes absolutely that's that's

kind of how it worked it's not like and

you know what we we discussed hey do I

get 10% the 25% do we drip this out and

both of us had made the official

determin

whatever was most tox efficient for him

right and this really was the most tox

efficient way to get it done so uh that

really kind of forced our hands and well

he he did understandably have a piece of

him that was like I really kind of

expected to drip this to you a little

more than 100% overnight the emotional

aspect of that that is effectively like

okay is it okay it's yours now I guess

um but again that that's more of a

formality as far as both of us are

concerned it's not like all of a sudden

I puffed my chest and I was like hey I

own this place you're fired Jan exactly

exactly so it's like it's all the exact

same thing it's not like overnight on

December 31st 2023 I said never mind

here's the changes I'm making it was it

was just natural it's more of formality

from tax efficiency perspective okay

that's great to hear I mean yeah that is

one of the issues you talk about the

murkiness in the succession plan the

assumptions the it'll happen eventually

when it happens it didn't sound like

there was any of that in his mind of the

leadership of the company you said six

or seven years ago you started to make

these calls and he let you and it wasn't

like well you're running the company but

I really own it so we're going to stop

yeah is that right that is exactly right

he's I mean understandably he's trusted

me I I I've kind of proved myself to him

for a lack of a better term um and all

the decisions we have made is has kind

of certainly propelled us up to the

successful business that we're at today

uh and certainly where we expect to be

um so yeah he he's he's trusted me he's

trusted my decisions uh there's been

times he's like are you sure uh and as

long as I'm confident whatever I'm

bringing to his attention or making

decision he says okay sounds good I

trust you uh and haven't seared and

wrong not com fo so far gotcha okay cool

yeah a lot of books on succession

planning and everything just experience

they draw the three like Vin diagram

Circles of you've got a relationship as

a owner versus non-owner you've got a

relationship as a employee versus both

of you guys are employees in the company

and you've got a relationship as Dad and

sun and you've got to decide where do we

want Clarity in this Vin diagram and

where we you know there was Clarity on

the ownership or on the employee side it

sounded like you're Chief Operating

Officer you make the decisions that

guide us in this

direction uh that that executes on this

even though the ownership yet hadn't

filled in so that's Clarity needs to be

in there somewhere it just necessarily

wasn't on the ownership side for you

guys yet exactly yeah no and it it's

like I said it was from a trust

standpoint he's really trusted me and

I've certainly trusted him and I mean

God bless him he's he's got me to where

I am today um and yeah I could have

worked out better for for the both of us

where Frank okay uh if I can ask like

coming up with a valuation of a company

that you've been in for 15

years how did that go about because I'm

assuming it's over it's a it's a hefty

buyou uh just on the on the estate

planning side that you've talked about

so

I I mean talk talk through that process

for me that was a very very very

interesting one and and especially

speaking of us being I'll say arguably

too polite about everything

um so I mean we ultimately did end up

getting an official formal business

valuation from a third party and we went

very close to where that ended up a lot

of it was kind of tax efficiency okay

let's reduce a little bit because of XYZ

um and so it it was interesting right

because I can sit here all day and he

can sit here all day and say well I've

brought arguably 50% to this business

regardless of whatever the actual

corporate share structure uh says right

and so the question becomes well even if

that's the

reality does CRA care and the short

answer is no I'm just a very good

important key man employee right and so

we ended up coming to a place where it

was fair on both sides uh as well as

effectively a handshake agreement that

says you know what will I'll take care

of him as kind of time goes on as he

rides into the sunset doing whatever he

wants ultimately um and so it ended up

being very fair and most importantly I

think it would have changed a little bit

if I had to uh ultimately pay him out of

pocket my personal pocket where we were

able to officially kind of structure

this so he was able to be paid out from

the corporation with kind of how we set

up the share structure or sorry the

corporate structure uh with different

Vol go Etc so that made it I'll say less

of a concern for me to pay him x amount

uh because of whatever had kind of

ultimately transpired behind the scenes

and why I brought to the table so we

wanted to make sure that it was all fair

but you're right that before we got some

kind of serious serious advice from some

super high level tax Specialists far SM

than us um we were getting into the

nitty-gritty of if effectively okay how

much did I bring to the table how do you

quantify that how do you determine what

has Mike done for this business and you

could even sit here and say well we

would be nowhere without Ross starting

this business that had $100,000 You

could argue the flip side that said well

it would have potentially crashed and

burned had I not brought all these

operations hired all these people made

all these decisions pivoted over to this

way Etc so it is an interesting

interesting conversation that we both

landed on I don't know

we didn't necessarily know and and call

it 50/50 and that's where we landed for

the sake of Simplicity that actually had

no bearings on where we ended up from

the valuation or how that kind of ended

up transpiring but we put a lot of focus

on that I'll say unnecessarily with the

benefit of hindsight now um just to

basically make that decision make that

determination but it really ended up

what matters from a CRA perspective and

what ends up kind of being fair because

knock on would but should CRA end up

asking any questions we've obviously got

to justify valuations got to justify

this and I was never a shareholder on

paper so yeah gotcha okay yeah there's a

big fear of if I do if I exit my

business sell it to a consolidator sell

it to an outsider then I'll get a pay

date if I do it internally I won't get

paid it's just going to transfer you

know way under market value but actually

the studies show that the premium is

only about 10 to

15% uh on selling to an outsider versus

an Insider so it is it is interesting to

see you guys did a legal official

valuation of the business to to come up

with that what that fair looked like and

you know satisfy the taxing authorities

so exactly and we figured that was the

simplest bet uh we got good

relationships with business valuators

anyway so it's not like it cost us

$10,000 or anything like that we were

able to get it done for an appropriate

price um and it just seemed fair right I

mean even if we argue this or argue that

it's just you know what let's land on a

spot that third party kind of says and

and work with that from tax efficiency

standpoint

great uh how many how many years for the

buyout in order for the cash flow from

the company five years yeah we're it's

we're aiming in the way that we're

trending right now I'd like to make that

happen considerably sooner just to keep

things clean um so we're pushing out as

much as we can to him as as kind of

quick as we can while keeping on the

radar that we are looking at some

Acquisitions um and so cash is King and

he's a big part of that obviously as

well in that regard too so we're doing

we can to kind of balance that pay it

out over 5 years I ideally like to say

at the maximum um but TVD spend some

things on full all right uh shifting

away from that just a little bit so you

guys are 30 people right now uh all

within not even 10 years about seven

years you guys have gone from two to 30

um and I know you work with other people

in your family so you said your mother

was a part owner um talk about that I

mean it's not the same as they worked

there and then Dad brought son in you

guys were there together and then you

guys hired people but uh just talk about

the decision to make it more of a family

company absolutely so um my mom Sue and

I'm able they're still shocked at how

I'm able to turn that on and off and

quickly call them Ross or Sue or mom or

dad um but so sue uh she had always

worked for a midsize accounting firm in

Toronto um and so she' done that for 35

years kind of administration office

management type stuff uh so it was

always really in the back of our minds

that she's at some point certainly going

to come on

board and so we had I think at the point

where we made that determination was

probably about five employees in so we

had a lower level admin she was quite

frankly too expensive for us it didn't

make sense so he's going to lose the

salary income and he's all of a sudden

going to pay her so we had to kind of

weigh those pros and cons and whatever

it makes most l sense so it was probably

about I don't know 5 years ago or so

maybe where we officially brought her on

board and there had been somebody else

that she'd worked with for the past 25

years who's our uh kind of head senior

accountant now um that he said if Sue

leaves this firm I'm leaving this firm

so not only were we losing I'll say

Sue's salary or my mom's salary in the

family at that point and then paying her

we had to pay George who's his name uh

at that time too now half jokingly he

obviously didn't say you have to pay me

I got to jump on board but we wanted him

and we needed him so we made the

determination let's bring Sue on let's

bring George on let's kind of take it to

the next level um and so just given her

experience it was a no-brainer that at

some point she was obviously going to

come and and end up working for us

obviously it was a different experience

and and kind of continues to be in the

best kind of way um having her son

really be her a and and and tell her

what to do um and so it's not like that

like I said I'm able to turn it on I'm

able to turn it off we're very very good

everybody in the firm at being able to

kind of separate that personal from the

business uh and I speak to everybody as

polite as I possibly can whether your

family or not right that really doesn't

matter to me at the end of the day I

want to treat everybody with respect and

treat everybody the same um but then as

that kind of unfolded so now you've got

my dad my mom me uh we then brought on

board my uncle uh who is one of our

project managers and he's kind of been

in the business space his whole life

doing kind a whole lot of sales type

stuff too so he's project manager/ sales

for us currently uh and he's fantastic

too and then I think about three years

ago we brought on uh my sister-in-law as

well and so she is one of our absolute

Rockstar admins too with a legal

background so her attention to detail is

kind of unparalleled uh which is

fantastic so uh so we have my dad my mom

my uncle my sister-in-law and I think

I've taken everybody possibly from the

family tree at this point uh this is

your wife's sister or this is my wife's

sister yeah absolutely so so I made the

very very conscious decision to hire her

as a limited contractor in the beginning

to kind of test the waters how are you

going to do in tax time and she excelled

she absolutely killed it and I said

great we've got a full-time spot for you

here forever should you want to come on

board because there'd be nothing worse

than having to let go a family member

never mind my wife's a sister at that

point so I was was a little a little

hesitant in the beginning but I I saw

her work and she'd get done some kind of

other limited stuff for me separately um

and uh and yeah know so she's she's

absolute Rockstar we're thankful to have

all of these people for sure gotcha okay

how do you guys do with turning that off

at family functions I mean is your wife

just drowning in so everybody's talking

business except for me it's it's rather

interesting and we do we have very

consciously tried to turn it off as best

we possibly can right cuz if you see my

mom and my dad and my uncle and me and

just her family in a room it's like how

do we not talk about this Burning client

or whatever situation is going on um but

we know nobody wants to hear about that

nobody cares about ybl nobody cares

about what we're doing nobody cares

about this that and so we've been able

to kind of taper it down quite a bit as

as as time's gone on um and try and keep

it kind of business and obviously or

sorry keep it personal um obviously it

slips out every once in a while but it'

be interesting and then you got other

family functions where my sister-in-law

is being asked by her uncle hey how's

your job going and I'm kind of right

beside her and she's like good good good

my class is right here but no she's

using Morse code blinking exactly

exactly ask me in five minutes nobody's

as far as I'm aware nobody's got to lie

about how much they like or don't like

their job so I mean it's all it's all

open conversations everything's going

very well everybody's happy as far as

they tell me anyways which is which is

important right so you have a structure

now obviously that can scale and you're

looking to almost double the number of

employees that you have what does what

does it look like to be a

nonprofessional leading a Professional

Services firm as an operating officer I

mean what's your what's your main focus

every day operations kind of solely

right as you can shockingly imagine uh

we're actually in the midst of uh a

complete kind of orang structure

overhaul so we're thinking about going

down a couple different paths have kind

of shaken that up a little bit um

whether you get your traditional tax

manager or you're going kind of the Pod

structure route with the kind of niched

verticals within internally so we're

actually flirting with a couple

opportunities and and going to make some

kind of difficult decisions uh within

the coming months to make sure that we

are really prepared to scale uh I mean

we've scaled tremendously we were able

to uh ever so politely kind of take

advantage of the opportunity that the

last few years have have presented us

from a remote perspective uh and that's

really kind of pushed us into this next

level and so now the question is okay

we've made it here let's pump the breaks

ever so slightly let's get back to that

Foundation those fundamentals and make

sure we're ready for that kind of Next

Step whether that's acquisition multiple

Acquisitions where there's just natural

growth um focusing on orc structure and

client experience but focusing on orc

structure is absolutely the highest

priority of the day uh and and how does

that kind of get set up for for the

future kind of grow grow path is is very

important where I'm focusing a lot of my

time a lot of my efforts cuz I am

fortunate enough that I have been able

to delegate I would say about 95% of my

client facing work uh so that's gone

very very well in that regard which I

think quite frankly being in it now is

absolutely mandatory I mean even the

employees that have delegated all that

work to were like how did you do this

how did you do this plus this plus this

this the short answer is I have no idea

I just made it work um but I I I I

really want to work myself out of a job

to the extent that there's other stuff I

should be and can be focusing on and and

kind of moving the needle in in a

different way um so would have just been

impossible without me kind of delegating

all that work and looking for the the

most appropriate path to success and and

certainly scaling and I don't just want

to scale or grow for the sake of scaling

and growing I want it to be very

intentional uh you can just buy a firm

you can do this you can do that whatever

you want to do but that's not what I'm

looking to do I wanted to be very

selective and very intentional um and

spend a lot of time being able to the

fles at it yeah I mean anybody could

scale revenue and make four or five% off

of it but you it sounds like by focusing

on who that Topline revenue is going to

be you guys are looking for higher

profitability from that uh up to this

point since 2010 have you guys been very

selective with types of clients or Niche

or Focus anything like that not not

currently um and I know there's a lot of

talk about kind of nich in the space um

and so that's that's not really where

we're at well we are selective to an

extent to other metrics such as kind of

responsiveness good people uh people

that can afford to pay the bills we

haven't actually kind of narrowed down

our niche in regards to kind of who

we'll work with um we've certainly got

more selective like easy example we're

exclusive to QuickBooks Online uh so we

won't work with any of the systems if

you're willing to convert that's

fantastic uh but we are actually in the

midst of uh kind kind of rebranding uh

and now that we've kind of officially

made it ybl as opposed to your bottom

line um that has narrow a focus a little

bit more in regards to the industries

we're working with so well yes from a

marketing perspective we're working with

kind of real estate and ancillary

whether it's agents Brokers Real Estate

Investors and Healthcare whether it's

massage Cairo Physio and trades um we

will work with people outside of that

scope but from a marketing perspective

that's kind of what we're looking at so

one of the things like I mentioned

before we're thinking about uh flirting

with the possibility of doing internal

pods with kind of niched verticals so

that's something we're playing with too

I gotta but up until now it's been very

much the traditional well we've got this

CPA over here he likes working with this

type of business and so these are his

clients that he's kind of brought in so

y capacity resources all that fun stuff

who's got to pay it with y y um you did

say before the call um and you're not

the first firm I've interviewed but

you're using PF also for your rebranding

here going through that process this

year we went through the same last year

um and it caused us to uh severely Niche

down as well um how have those

discussions been going with

Dad so versus just you saying well you

know this is the company we're going to

run for the future I know that's one of

the struggles is 20-year relationships

um that don't fit into that Niche how's

that how's that going so better than I

expected quite frankly we ran kind of

all of uh minor Ross's conversations

there was trust and faith and and based

on picking your battles and such right

so while I am the one actively working

with PF which by the way the most

fantastic team I've ever worked with

worth every penny I pay them more but

don't tell them

that when you when you convert it from

uh pounds over to Canadian different

story um but ultimately uh they're a

fantastic team to work with and he's

really I mean more than ever put a lot

of trust and faith in me I would say

more than anything in the last 14 years

with regards to this kind of big

rebranding the overhaul our missions our

values our website our logo our ideal

clientele every piece of that he's he's

really allowed me to take control of

that um and well yes I'll I'll be on the

lovely calls with uh the great team at

PF discussing hey what this what with

this what with that um and they'll take

it back and kind of relay it to him and

he'll have kind of slight tweaks or

slight suggestions but he says only if

you kind of think so um and so it's it's

worked out well while he absolutely has

input and he absolutely has a voice uh

he doesn't use it quite often in in the

most respectful kind of way uh and when

he does I'm very receptive to it right

by all means I don't want him to feel

like he's been pushed out of his own

company on paper or not not in a million

years he's a very valued part of the

team quite frankly so I'm not looking to

just push push aside that experience and

that value and and the knowledge that he

certainly brings to the table Yeah for

me the value from PF was just getting me

and my partner both on the same page

because we both had different ideas

about what we wanted this company to

look like but those sessions that we

spent with them helped us just put

something down and commit to it so and

you know that's what I really love Sor

to cut you off there but that's one of

the things that I really loved about PF

was they won't just do your website they

won't just do local they need to deeply

understand who you are who your ideal

client is and every different thought

about them their fears their strengths

and these kinds of things just really

digging into my brain uh in in the best

kind of way um I said it's kind of like

therapy right they're just extracting

all this information out of me and

that's what I love about it right

because you could do a website you could

do a logo but that doesn't necessarily

tailor to the most appropriate audience

and so same thing as you I mean it

really helped us kind of narrow down

those not niches but let's say the real

estate the healthcare and the trades

that alone obviously I worked with Ross

on that what made most sense who's our

ideal client um so yeah it really forced

our hands in the best kind of way to to

make some difficult kind of

determinations or conversations and it's

not necessarily that we're going on a

mass firing spree if you're not in those

kind of niches um but we will absolutely

be a lot more selective and if a current

client doesn't necessarily understand it

then then that's okay and I think that's

one going to be one of the favorite

Parts about this rig brand is that I

think it's really going to show who we

are not only to new potential clients

but to current clients right well

they've seen this natural technology

progression in the background and of

course we changed our website done this

done that I think with the real kind of

big overhaul that's going be that oh

that is who they are this is what they

stand for this is what's going on behind

the scenes and if that doesn't work for

everybody that's okay that's fine right

yeah help them see that there's a why or

a bigger picture behind it you guys

aren't just changing your website just

to change

it a purpose that it's all leading

towards exactly yeah you got it yeah and

that's you know

going a lot of branding agencies out

there it'll be like we need a website

give us a website and they'll give you a

website and then on the flip side other

ones will be like well this is who we

think you should be but just the process

that you go through with PF is who are

you not who do we as an as a branding

agency think you should be in order to

appeal to

you know younger or more techsavvy or

whatever uh clients but it it is getting

down to what your core values are so

yeah and I respect that I respect the

time they've spent and and what they've

extracted out of me and like I said

force my hand in the best kind of way to

make these decisions and make sure that

I'm kind of getting this stuff out of

out of my head out of my mind and

putting it on paper right did you go

through that process entirely by

yourself then I mean I was the only

point of contact for PF I was the only

one on the zoom calls on the everything

like that but behind the scenes I was

absolutely working with Ross and working

with Ashley who's our operations manager

who is my right hand in the business

other than Ross Gull at my left hand um

and she's been instrumental in the

success of our business and it helped

them from an operation perspective as

well too uh so what does the future hold

besides scaling employees for you guys

and the finishing the Rebrand this year

I would say just really honing in on

like I said the orc structure really

honing in on the client experience uh

client experience is extremely important

to me for understandable obvious reasons

um you never want somebody coming in the

door saying hey you know what I thought

you're going to do this you're going to

do that I want to be clear as day and I

think with the Rebrand we've really kind

of honed in on that and made that happen

as well um and so other than let's say

client experience orc structure scaling

those kinds of things internally we

really want to just cultivate uh the

best possible team we can and that's one

of the reasons we've kind of gone and

pushed to being as remote As we possibly

can because it would be it's difficult

for me to wrap my head around making the

decision to hire somebody let's say 10%

as qualified as somebody who's 100% rock

star who's in a different Province or in

a different state or in a different

country just because they're down the

road in the proximity right so that's

really what kind of forced my hand into

make a determination you know what let's

do this as remote As we possibly can

let's just Source it out the best talent

and taking care of those people right

you find the good people you can attract

the good people but you got to be able

to retain them and take care of them and

so whether that's Financial monetary

work life balance benefits whatever that

is the whole kind of package we're we're

massive massive on feedback and

transparency and flexibility and

communication for that matter too right

we we we take feedback very seriously

internally and externally and so we're

very regularly s crowdsourcing from our

clients from our team hey what about

this what about that and everybody feels

that their voice is very heard here and

I feel very confident saying that and

that's very important to me I want

everybody to be a big part of the team I

want to be able to take care of our team

um so I would say just keep kind of

refining that and and honing in on that

is is very important to me as well got

true okay were you guys were you guys

fully remote prior to covid so not you

had a building at some point but did

that yeah yeah so we actually just moved

into our largest office our current

office November 2019 so terrible timing

understandably um but you know what the

rate was actually cheaper than the spot

we were at that was smaller before so it

worked out okay um and so that spot can

currently hold six seven eight look 13

people um but I would say we probably

got three people that work there

full-time four or five people y yep uh

four or five people myself included that

are hybrid uh and then the rest what's

that leave kind of 22 that are all over

majority Canada would never come to the

office would never come to the office

well I shouldn't say never because the

majority of our team I'd say about 20 of

our 30 team members are extended GTA so

around Toronto by an hour or two so we

actually just got I think it was about

14 of us uh together at the Toronto

QuickBooks connect conference um so I

love if somebody could be close-ish and

we can see them once a year or or

anything like that then then all the

better um so that doesn't make the

decision for us but yes now from a

client facing perspective through this

new Rebrand we're remote only whether we

actually have that office or not or a

few Legacy clients come in or not is

really not a big deal to us it's as much

for us as it is clients um so we're

completely remote from a new client

perspective and limiting as much as we

possibly can from uh I'll say a calling

perspective for current clients to try

and say hey let's do everything online

as best we can so that's one of the kind

of Silver Linings that kind of came from

everything that transpired as people did

realize hey maybe I can just zoom my

account or maybe I can send my documents

this way through the poal whatever that

might be so a hybrid environment I mean

we're the same we've got 15 on staff and

any given day four or five of us are in

the office but the majority work from

home four days out of the week um how do

you guys at 30 if I could ask a personal

non- succession related question how do

you guys as 30 people build culture in

an online environment other than like a

QuickBooks connect conference that

happens to be in your hometown so um

that's a great question and we actually

continue to refine that and and

determine what does that really look

like right what do events look like is

it in person is it hybrid is it

something that we're just doing an

online game on Zoom or or what have you

so we have a couple little things that

we're doing to kind of keep the culture

together and especially with new people

we're very intensely kind of having them

meet with with different people

virtually to try and get to know the

team understand who we are this we're

never going to be the suit and tie

accountants as you can see um that's not

kind of who we want to be we want to be

much more approachable so we do very

regularly and it's kind of review season

for us right now where we're picking our

employees brains hey what do you think

of this what do you think of that and

it's interesting right because an easy

way in a remote world is to say well

just do something online whether that's

like I said over simp fly some game on

Zoom or something like that but then the

question

becomes number one is that helping for

hurting and number two do people even

want to do that right are you forcing

them either during work hours to get out

of the zone or outside of work hours and

then taking that personal time away from

them and the majority of people say you

know what it's I don't really care it's

not really doing anything for me and so

we're still trying to find a way to keep

that culture um and and I think we do a

fantastic job job there's always room

for improvement in anything we do uh but

keeping it friendly keeping it casual

whether it's just different

conversations on teams water cooler

Channel you're talking about your dogs

or your kids or whatever that might be

but we're still refining what that kind

of culture looks like um so inperson

events as much we possibly can we do

have some online activities and things

that we're doing um and whether that's

some sort of kind of wellness program or

other stuff that we're we're

implementing um I think it's helping and

I think people really appreciate that

but always open to suggestions that's

for sure have you guys ever done any

like team Retreat like 100% attendance

or anything like that not yet we're

actually discussing that internally

right now because we do feel like we get

so much benefit from let's say

QuickBooks connect or any conference

that we're going to um and to have that

felt by absolutely everybody not just

the people who can drive there as

opposed to fly there I think is

extremely important so uh uh I think

that's something that's definitely going

to be on the horizon for us for sure

gotcha yeah we just did our first

actually offsite last June after having

gone through some of the initial stuff

with PF we had enough to say this is who

we are these are our core values these

are our Target client we didn't have the

brand yet we didn't have the website but

we did that and we committed to doing

that once every three years just to

check in on our three-year goals and

everything like that I love that highly

recommended it and you know for the

people who are here locally um we left

too we went to Virginia you know three

hours away from here just so that there

wouldn't be any temptation to say come

see us in the office and I'm going to be

over there having coffee but then run

back here and check email and do local

stuff so highly recommend it I love that

no and I've seen more and more on

wherever you're looking LinkedIn tax

Twitter whatever that might be more and

more people are doing Retreats like that

and so it's certainly Peak my curiosity

that much more uh and everybody whatever

they're saying whether it costs 5,000 or

100,000 for these r

every single person I've seen and and

heard of whatever they're paying they've

all said worth every single penny it's

just palpable the feeling and the

difference even if you're just talking

on teams or slack after that they said

just the tone changes it completely

changes everybody's re-energize and get

so much from that FaceTime so definitely

on the radar for us for sure we actually

we went to the hills the mountains we

actually rented an entire cabin at a

campsite uh for us the host s took care

of meals and everything like that but so

that we weren't all we all had our

separate rooms but it wasn't like a

hotel where you might be on the 11th

floor there on the third floor it's like

scatter kind of thing so it was it was

great we actually most of us walked from

the cabin to the dining hall like a half

mile for each meal and so we got lots of

talking time and stuff like that so

that's perfect that's great you guys

have gone through a lot of changes

there's got to have been some point

where you and your were you and Ross

buted heads on something that caused you

to be like this isn't going to

work you think of that story I want to

hear that story because from so far from

our conversation everything is gone

exactly as perfect a little bit murky

but gone gone off without a hitch and

your d ross sounds like a great uh

leader to follow in the footsteps of but

there's got to be something come on big

big shoes to fill you're absolutely

right and that was one of the biggest

kind of I'll say hurdles for us to get

over I'm not I'm not sidelining your

question but one of the biggest hurdles

to get over was as it was just Ross and

Mike or even just Ross with this guy

who's helping doing bookkeeping or

whatever in the beginning at his house

at his kitchen table to change the

mindset of all of those clients this

isn't just Ross right this is your

bottom line or this is yv right to be

able to change that was a rather

difficult uh not difficult but that was

one of the bigger Earles to understand

that we are growing and you have to

understand that and respect that or it's

not necessary really going to work

you're not getting Ross 100% of the time

or even mik for that matter um so that

that was a big hurdle to kind of uh move

out of the the office in that regard but

quickly kind of Segways into I would

say nothing has ever been a

hostile argument between the two of us

sure but I'm always the one that's

wanting to move further faster harder

and so if you want to say one of our our

most difficult arguments or

disagreements however you want to label

it it would be those kinds of things

right like do we need our first employee

do we need to move out of the the living

room and my mom would say yes get out of

here I want my house back that two to

one that exactly so those kinds of of of

hurdles would I would say be I would say

the most difficult conversations um and

every time very very fortunately he's

been like you were right right and so

he's how do I say it Frugal um and so

he's an accountant he sure is he bleeds

accounting um but ultimately he he would

not mve nearly he would not have moved

nearly as fast as we did if it weren't

for me saying that we have to do this we

have to take that next step we have to

hire an admid uh number one because I'm

just doing too much work but number two

it's just we can't unlock this kind of

next phase without actually bringing

these people on board and they're big

decisions right I'm not going to sugar

quot and pretend like I had everything

figured out it's a very big decision

hiring your quote unquote first employee

outside of your son um and your first

office outside of the home like those

are very difficult decisions but I just

knew that we would be able to take it to

that next step I'm not the type that I

want my team to theoretically be at 200%

capacity before we have to be able to

hire somebody we're fortunate and

blessed enough for me to be able to say

we're probably going to get some new

clients and here here's how we can kind

of forecast and project that and let's

work backwards from there and see what

we might need and that really flows into

that kind of work structure conversation

so I would say if if you want to think

of kind of the hardest conversations

those would probably be them but even

still that's it's more of him being like

are you sure and me being like yes I'm

confident he'll say all right fine and

then you go away and be like I'm trying

to be confident there's really been no

Angry conversations I mean even if you

talk about my wage or compensation I was

always for forunate always appreciative

so it's not like there were ever any

large disagreements with any of those

I'll say more uh uh higher level

conversations or higher level decisions

to be made there's a lot of trust and I

give all the Kudos in the world to him

for trusting me um this whole way for

sure uh just one more question before we

get into the lightning round what what

do you have in the back of your mind for

your own plans for succession I know

it's a long way down the road but is it

at at this point you got have a

leadership path do you have any kind of

things in the back of your head that you

need to focus on over the next 20 25

years I mean long long term in a magical

Ideal World my son or my daughter uh my

son's five my daughter literally just

turned one so this might be a couple

years out um but prior to that I would

say well well I don't necessarily have

any succession plans for myself that is

very very important to me uh we're only

on this Earth for a short time so we

want to make a difference certainly

while we're here and and you want to

hope for the best prepare for the worst

um so or structure cultivating a

fantastic team I think all that kind of

quickly and and easily just shifts into

that next phase of the conversation of

what does that end up looking like

whether Ross ends up kind of stepping

aside in two years 5 years 10 years

whatever that ends up looking like this

is fun to him this has not worked to him

at all he's going to be here as long as

I'll have him I always tell him before I

got to kick him out of his own business

um ultimately he's until he's a

liability let's

say but um no I mean right now I'm not

necessarily thinking of that but

partnership is certainly going to be

something that will end up being

inevitable uh and so I've certainly

wrapped my mind around that as best I

possibly can while I don't necessarily

need it right now who knows what future

Acquisitions have in store who knows

what my current team might be capable of

in in that regard who might move up who

might make most sense um but for now I'm

I'm okay with Ross or even myself kind

of doing it how I am but I know that it

will be inevitable at some point like I

said whether that's a partner in the

interim or a full kind of succession

plan uh but if you're looking for my

dream answer that's my son or my

daughter at some point uh so we I'd like

to end my shows with a lightning round

this is just a series of questions with

a sentence one and a half sentences just

no context just get to know my guests a

little bit more uh here at the end let

us know the person behind the business

owner so you ready for the lightning

round let's do it all right all right uh

coffee or tea and how do you like it

coffee 100% of the time um I maybe had

five teas in my life uh one cream no

sugar okay all right uh pie or cake and

is there a specific kind cheesecake all

day long although I did have the best

cherry pie I've ever had in Amsterdam on

my hone okay uh plain cheesecake or like

a marbled one what do you like Cherry

I'd say cherry cherry cheesecake okay uh

what is a common belief among

entrepreneurs or among your clients that

you want to challenge I'm an optimist

not a pessimist but a lot of these

individuals will come to me and say I'm

quitting my job I hate my boss I'm

working too many hours I'm going to

start my own business whatever that

might be it's going to be easier I say I

hate to break it to you if all goes

right you're probably working 80 hours a

week and everything's your fault so just

be be aware be careful and understand

what you're really getting into because

business ownership and Entrepreneurship

is not for everybody and there's no

right path

right couldn't have put it better

myself uh what's your favorite holiday

and why I got to say Christmas uh you

see the most family around Christmas my

wife is obsessed with Christmas uh it's

it's she's already bought presents by

July 1st half Christmas for her anyways

uh do you consider yourself a morning

person or a night person and do you have

a routine neither

um I don't stay up too terribly late

honestly I wake up usually very early

kind of 4:00 a.m. before the kids are

awake people would call that a morning

person I would yes so I do it because I

have to let's say because I'm so tired

at night I've got myself into this

structure so I'll wake up do my best do

a cold plunge off to the gym do some

cardio kids are awake as best I possibly

can and start the day right I love that

time in the morning so yes I'll call

myself a morning person I forced it on

myself though it's not like I love it I

wake up and I'm like I have to do this

no he's awake I'd love to be a night

person but I can't stay asleep later

than 10:30 so that's that's it that's

absolutely it yeah exactly what is one

thing that you would want your successor

to remember you for I would want them to

say that uh he he tried and and he cared

about the people around him and did

everything he could to take care of them

um and he gave it his all and and

ideally he accomplished the goals that

he set up for himself uh where are you

finding creativity right now we kind of

already talked about it but I'd say PF I

mean those those people are fantastic uh

I've read their book account marketer uh

I don't mean for all of this to be a

plug for PF but if it is so be it um but

I would say it means Karen's going to

share our podcast there you go

absolutely Karen please share me they

are absolutely fantastic creative as a

hell um and and I love everybody on the

team they're fantastic but I'd say

communities as well like tax Twitter

different communities like realized with

Jason stats um there are tons of

creative accounts out there for sure uh

and last question what do you guys have

coming up at ybl this year that's got

you really excited uh not the plugger

one more

time but but the Rebrand the new website

the new logo new ideal clients new

clearer values uh insanely excited about

that uh yeah no they they've just taken

it to the next level so Rebrand was

obviously massive for us uh and very

exciting times for sure is the new

website live already or what's the date

okay yep absolutely all right and so

where can people find out more about you

guys Mike they can find us on social

media anywhere you want kind of LinkedIn

Instagram Facebook all that fun stuff or

just writ our website your

bottomline.com

you Barett for having me on today it's

been a pleasure my friend yeah has been

a pleasure thank you so much Mike